Web Masters Episode #80: Scott Heiferman (Meetup)


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Scott Heiferman:

I think that at the end of the day, in a world where there’s a march to the metaverse, starting from the early days of the web to where we are today, and constantly pushing the envelope to continual virtualization, and continued exploration of what’s possible from moving from physical to digital, and thinking that your future and your kids are going to be living in a metaverse house, because they can’t afford a real house. They’re going to be wearing metaverse clothes with metaverse NFT art on the wall, and having metaverse friends. You can say, “Hold up, what are our bodies? What is real? What delivers you happiness?” Not to knock a metaverse life in moderation, or something, I don’t know, but in the future we have to defend IRL. There’s something magical. There’s truly something magical in in-person connection that is perhaps not replaceable. Why would you?

Aaron Dinin:

Defending IRL, defending real life. Who knew that’s something that would ever have to be defended? Yet, here we are living in a world that’s on a steady march toward increased virtualization and remote connectivity. Is that a good thing? Is it a bad thing? I’m not sure what I think really matters. I don’t have much say how it all plays out, but the saying isn’t true for the guest on this episode of Web Masters. His name is Scott Heiferman. He’s the founder of Meetup.com, the website built specifically to help its users leverage the power of virtual connectivity to create in real life communities. Are you ready to hear the story? Let’s get dialed in.

[INTRO]

Aaron Dinin:

Welcome to Web Masters, the podcast where you’ll learn about entrepreneurship and internet history by listening to stories from the Internet’s most impactful innovators. I’m your host, Aaron Dinin. I’m a serial entrepreneur. I teach entrepreneurship at Duke University, and I study the history of the internet and worldwide web. One of the most important aspects of most networking technologies is of course that they can help connect anyone, anywhere in the world. As a result, they are inherently great at enabling distributed communities, but, as we’re going to discuss on this episode, maybe that doesn’t have to be the only kinds of communities they enable. Rather than making us less reliant on the people we’re physically closest to, how can the internet and web help us get more connected with the people in our local communities? We’re going to start trying to answer that question in a minute, but first, I’m going to take a moment to tell you about our sponsor.

Web Masters is being developed with support and partnership from Latona’s. Latona’s is a boutique mergers and acquisitions broker that helps people buy and sell cash flow positive, internet businesses, and digital assets. That includes things like eCommerce stores, Amazon FBAs, Shopify sites, SaaS apps, content networks, domain portfolios, as well as just about any other type of online work from anywhere business you can build and operate on the internet. If you’ve got a profitable internet business you’re thinking of selling, Latona’s can help you. Reach out to their team of expert brokers and they’re going to be able to teach you about the process and give you the support and resources you need to get it sold for a great price. If you’re hoping to buy an internet business, Latona’s is a great resource too. Their website is filled with listings of internet businesses they’re currently helping to sell. That website is, of course, latonas.com. L A T O N A S .com.

There’s certainly no question that one of the biggest impacts of the internet is its ability to let us easily connect with people anywhere in the world whenever we want, and at its core, meetup.com is a website leveraging that very phenomenon, but it’s doing it in a different way. Meetup helps its users connect with people in their local communities. That’s important because, let’s be honest, most of us don’t actually know many of the people we live near. No matter where digital technologies take us, metaverses and decentralized financial systems, and who knows what else, our physical communities aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. It’s probably a good thing that we have ways of keeping us better connected to the communities in which we live. At least, that’s what this episode’s guest, Scott Heiferman believes. He is, of course, the founder of Meetup. He’s also someone who, as you might expect, has what we could call a healthy suspicion about some of the rhetoric around the digital age and its seeming progression toward virtual worlds. To help us understand where some of this skepticism comes from, let’s start by learning more about where Scott comes from.

Scott Heiferman:

I was more in the early seventies, so I’m an old man. I was coming up as computers were coming up. Thanks to my brother, Jay, I had a little Timex Sinclair, 1000 computer. My mom couldn’t afford it, but she swung it where I got an Apple 2C, and then my brother Jay bought this Macintosh. I just lived on this 1984 Mac back in the day, and was goofing around. I went to computer programming camp in Lake Forest College in Illinois, where I grew up. That was like assembly language, bordering on advanced stuff. I quickly realized I didn’t have the talent to be a great engineer, but I was interested in all that stuff.

Aaron Dinin:

If you were born in the seventies, I’m guessing that means you were in college right around the time the internet is really starting to enter public consciousness via the web. When did you first encounter the web?

Scott Heiferman:

I had that seminal experience of being in a computer lab in 1993, ’94, sitting next to my buddy, Ryan Nelson, at the University of Iowa when he tapped me on the shoulder and said, “Hey, check this out.” It was the mosaic web browser. Just looking at it curiously. I have to say, I didn’t have that epiphany of like, “Oh my God, this is the Lord and carnet, and seeing the future year,” but it was interesting enough to dig in and stay attached to it. But, even backing up, my interest growing up before college, before the web, what I was doing with these computers was always just goofing around with any project that struck me. It might have been building a database for my parents’ paint store, paint and wallpaper store. They own a little store, or starting a band or something as a preadolescent, and making flyers and things like that, just not being interested in games, or the computer specifically, but just what interesting things could I do with it? In college, I was really involved in the college radio station. It was KRUI. I saw the web and these other tools as an opportunity to goof around with audio, collage, art, and things of that sort.

Aaron Dinin:

Scott’s reaction to discovering the web is interesting because it’s different from what we’ve heard from a lot of the guests here on the show. For the most part, people got excited about the web because they saw it as a great way to build and/or accomplish new things. That’s not what you heard Scott describing. Scott was excited about the web, and more broadly digital technologies because of how it helped him better accomplish the things he’s already been doing. This is core to Scott’s beliefs about technologies in general. For Scott, technologies aren’t meant to change people. Technologies are meant to empower people.

Scott Heiferman:

My interest is always in a certain populism and scaling. Frankly, at that period, most people weren’t really doing anything on the internet. They may have been doing a search here and there, or a MapQuest use here or there. There was no smartphones. There no engagement, and much online community. Here and there, you had some things, but it wasn’t part of everyday culture, driving culture, let alone culture that we have today. I was bored by online communities and didn’t care all that much. I became really intrigued by blogging at the time, and how do people feel powerful. If they can publish, they can feel powerful. If they can organize, they can feel powerful. They can sell something on eBay, they can be powerful.

Aaron Dinin:

It kind of sounds like you saw the early internet as less of a creative force, and more of an enabling force. Is that fair to say?

Scott Heiferman:

Yeah, it’s a source of dignity. It’s a source of antidepressant. I tend to be thinking about today in web three, and NFTs, and all these things. That’s great. People can go on that path, but I’m trying to stay glued to what are the basic human needs? Larry and Sergei didn’t [inaudible 00:08:56] human need for information. It wasn’t serving tech needs, or Pierre Omidyar with starting eBay. It was like, okay, people want to buy and sell stuff. There tends to be sometimes a lost in the weeds around these internet questions, as opposed to just staying tuned to the struggles that people have. Bob Dylan’s grandmother said everyone’s fighting a hard battle, so be kind.

Aaron Dinin:

Building on that then, how does this idea that these technologies should be used to empower people lead you toward the idea for Meetup, because that wasn’t your first company, was it? How did you go from college student seeing the web for the first time to tech entrepreneur?

Scott Heiferman:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. December before graduating college, I had no idea what I was doing, or where I was going. I wasn’t very stressed or anxious about that. I knew that I was just interested in stuff and I figure it out, but you know what? My classmates were all lining up for job fairs, and going down some path of interviewing at Arthur Anderson, and who knows what, which it’s great for them, but I was like this old Apple fanboy. I did this thing, which doesn’t sound so crazy, but for me and my family, having been in the Midwest and not venturing out very much, I made a senior in college pilgrimage to the Mac world conference in San Francisco. This would have been ’93, ’94, December, January. I saw this presentation about general magic, which some people see there’s a documentary about general magic, which was a sort of pre, pre, precursor to today’s smartphone.

I went nuts, basically, hunting down any business cards of anyone related to this thing. I somehow stumbled on press releases, because again, there was no web or anything at this point. I was back in Iowa, just firing off snail mail letters to anyone saying, “I’ll sweep the floor, or make coffee. Do anything to help you.” I was VP at Sony, which was part of the consortium around general magic, trying to invent this future smartphone thing. He was awesome. Brian was, and said, “Yeah, come be an intern.” He gave me a shot. I drove from Iowa to … I thought it was New York, because I looked at the map. Again, there’s no … Sorry to do the whole grandpa stick of, “There was no Google maps, or map.” I’m practically in the library looking for … It says Mortdale, New Jersey. I’m like, “That’s pretty much New York City. I’m moving to … This is New York City.” Turns out, Mortdale, New Jersey, isn’t New York City. I landed there. I stuck around a year. I got really ambitious doing things outside of my charge there.

Aaron Dinin:

Sorry, one second. What kinds of things were you doing there?

Scott Heiferman:

What I was doing at … I had set up Sony’s first commercial online thing, which was on AOL, which was emerging at the time. The big question was, how do you drive traffic to a site on AOL? There was no commercial web really. This was when Sony made Walkman’s. That was the hot thing. I sent some Walkman’s to the guys in the back room at AOL who were in charge of managing the home screen. There was no … You couldn’t buy your way onto the home screen. There was no online ads at the time. Sending them Walkman’s, they got Sony onto the home screen of AOL that drove traffic. That really got me thinking that in the future links were going to be valuable.

I quit my and started what was the first online ad agency. We were going to basically figure out how to buy ads in the form of links on other websites, on behalf of clients. I was just a 22 year old idiot in New York City hooked up with a lot of good people. That company really took off. Within three or four years, we were over a hundred people, and profitable with big clients. But, here I was thinking, “Wait a minute, I have no interest in the ad business, or the ad industry. In fact, I hate advertising. I hate the ad business.” I didn’t want to be the kid running around to big companies, waving his hands about the internet and trying to convince old people that this is going to be more important than they think. Meanwhile, the whole internet revolution was zooming forward. I felt like I didn’t want to be stuck in the ad business.

Aaron Dinin:

Okay. You basically helped pioneer the online ad industry before launching Meetup. What was the name of that company, by the way?

Scott Heiferman:

That was i-Traffic. Name of the company was i-Traffic. We sold it to a firm called agency.com, which became part of the big conglomerate of advertising called Omnicom.

Aaron Dinin:

Wow. All right. That’s an interesting backstory. How does the online advertising agency lead you eventually toward launching Meetup, or does it? Are the two related in any way? I guess, could you share the Meetup founding story?

Scott Heiferman:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I was 27, 28, and had gone through this whole adventure, and really didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life, or what I was really interested in. Beyond that, I knew it wasn’t advertising. It’s just, that felt soulless. I basically just goofed around for a couple years, knowing that there’s these questions around, how do you make people more powerful? What’s the world we want? What’s the society we want? Just because you could build something, should you build it? I would have all these thoughts, “Oh, I should do this. I should do that,” and always holding back and saying, “Hey, does the world really need that? Should that exist? Why bother?” You could call it even an existential funk around what’s the point of different things. Fast forward a year or two, and I’m living in New York City, 9/11 happens.

I have this experience where I connected with the neighbors on my roof that I hadn’t talked to before. You’re in the elevator and you don’t talk to people, and then you’re on the roof and these towers are falling, and you strike up conversation, and look to each other, and lean on each other. It just got me interested and led me down a path to be thinking about, what is the importance of local community, and connection, and pushing people out of comfort zones to connect with people, talk to strangers to build a more rich, a more dense, a more real sense of community locally? I was reading the book, Bowling Alone, and this Harvard professor talks about basically saying, in an internet connected age, will we just devolve into the screen, or is there another path possible?

To me, the challenge emerged. It was a design challenge. It was a systemic challenge of how can you use the internet to get people off the internet? How could you spark local community? How can you bring people together? Meetup was a really basic idea. Let people form local gathering about something that’s important to them, really trigger that, spark that, and a lot of good things will happen.

Aaron Dinin:

How did you ultimately decide to do that? Or rather, I guess we know how you ultimately decided to do that, because you built Meetup, but how did you come to the conclusion that Meetup was the way to spark local community using the internet and web?

Scott Heiferman:

Yeah. Yeah. I wasn’t framing it as community. I was framing it as a really straightforward, very practical, simple question, which is how do you find the people locally that are interested in the same thing, and then push you to meet up with them. If you had a certain breed of dog, or you’re going through this certain kind of cancer, or you’re interested in taking your career in this direction, how do you connect with people, with a group of people in your town? The design challenge was this very specific, “Okay, if I put a website out there where people can start a local group about something, it’ll just die. How do you get a flywheel going? How do you solve a chicken and the egg pro?” We concocted a novel way of getting this thing to kick off, and it worked.

Aaron Dinin:

That was actually going to be my next question, solving the chicken and the egg problem, which is, of course, one of the hardest problems to solve when launching a new venture that’s a two-sided marketplace. How’d you solve it?

Scott Heiferman:

A message to all entrepreneurs out there is really getting creative on how things spread. How do things get embraced? How do they get adopted? Is really, so, so much to me, and I think something that people don’t think about enough. In Meetup’s case, like I said, if we had just made a website with start a meetup, and find a meetup, it wouldn’t have lasted the year. There were two main things that we did that were not tacked on. Sometimes people will build something and then they’ll say, “Okay, and then we’ll add a tell your friend about it feature, or something.” What we knew that was from the ground up, it had to be built to spread.

The way Meetup worked at the beginning was, we basically said that every topic, treat it like we’re Hallmark inventing a holiday. Hallmark invents holidays. They have international secretaries day, international grandmother’s day. You know what? We’re going to take a thousand topics like chihuahuas, or breast cancer, or single motherhood or something, on the first Tuesday of the month, we’re declaring its international Chihuahua meetup day, or we are declaring its international single mom day, or something. It’s going to happen every month on the first Tuesday of the month at seven, or the third Friday of the month at six. That was really intriguing to those communities.

Where those communities were gathered, this is pre Reddit, and pre lots of things. There was Usenet groups. To them, it was something special. It was honest. It was authentic. We really did build something so that you can, in your town, meet up with other folks like you locally. That was just appealing to people. That was a revelation to people, but it had enough structure to it.

It basically said, “Oh, really? Next Tuesday at six? Great. I’m in Philadelphia. I’m in Paris. I’m in Beijing. I’m in Sao Paulo. Let’s do this.” The other part was that once people found that, okay, here’s photography meetup day happening in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, on this date, then you vote on where you want to meet up. You don’t just say sign up. You’re, A, getting people’s attention with this international meetup day, and then you’re providing an easy on ramp to have people co-own it. In this case, by voting on where they’re going to meet, which obviously solves the problem of how the hell do we, in an office in New York City, know where people Tokyo want to meet to show off their dogs. That was key to the spread of Meetup, initially. We went through massive iterations in the following years to have it work completely different, but it got us off the ground.

Aaron Dinin:

Just to summarize that, it sounds like in the beginning you created all the meetups and the themes of the groups in order to provide the core structure. Then, I guess, as the platform grew, you got exposed to new audiences, more people saw it. From there, they had their own ideas for creating new meetups. Is that basically how the platform evolved?

Scott Heiferman:

Yeah. Yeah. Over the course of years, we stripped away that scaffolding so that this thriving network of tens of millions of people didn’t need that strict structure that was actually confining them. It was like throwing the crutches away.

Aaron Dinin:

This still had to be a business, though. Right? What was the business model behind Meetup?

Scott Heiferman:

We had some models in mind. The early ones didn’t work. Then there was just a point where coming out of the advertising field, I just was so dead set on not wanting to be in the ad business. This was a time when, even when Meetup was getting going, 2002, 2003, you had this guy, this wacky guy named Jeff Bezos giving interviews. Bezos was saying crazy stuff. He was saying, “We want to be the world’s most customer centric company.” He wanted his business to be one where, as long as we focus on the customer, everything else will fall into place. There was something really liberating about dropping all the convoluted concocted, “Oh, we’re going to sell our data, and we’re going to run ads, and we’re going to make people suffer through ads in order to get to what they really want.”

I was really concerned that an ad based economy was going to have externalities, and different problems associated, which have played out in the Facebook business model that I wanted to avoid. Long story short, we were really thriving. Meetup was just going gangbusters, and activity was just a skyrocketing thing. We did the most crazy move of going pretty hard just from free, to fee. We basically said, “In order to use Meetup as an organizer, you got to have a subscription.” It was freemium in the sense that the people going to meetups could go for free, but the organizer of the meetup has to pay. This created mad chaos and havoc. We basically killed 90% of our activity on the platform, immediately, by the switch.

You can look back on the press and the communities back in that day. They said this was like startup suicide. I felt like, if you have a product that’s good enough for people to pay for, do that. I also felt like, your best investor is your customer. We had only raised a little bit of money. I was like, “What if we’re not some crazy overfunded, super VC backed thing, and could control our own destiny more, and be more true to our people who were trying to benefit with this platform?” Pissed a lot of people off, respectful of the idea that some people just couldn’t afford the few bucks a month we were charging, but we really wanted to stick with that. With a few years of patience, it paid off. After a few years, we were much, much bigger than we were when we were free, and we had a profitable business. Self-sustaining.

Aaron Dinin:

Wow. That’s pretty gutsy to just go from free to paid. Why were you more focused on monetizing users, rather than doing the more standard tech startup thing of just raising a bunch of money from BCs to fund numbers growth, and then worry about monetizing later?

Scott Heiferman:

Well, just to be clear, we did have some venture investors. We lucked out and they were really incredibly wonderful people, like Andreas [inaudible 00:22:57] at DFJ, and Brad Burnham at Union Score Ventures, really respected VC. It wasn’t like we were completely out of the VC picture, but no, no, no. It’s very clear. If I thought I could use a ton of capital to grow faster, I would’ve raised all the capital in the world. I felt that we needed just enough cashflow to do what we needed to do. If we can essentially get the money from customers, we should do that as much as possible. I think, just stepping back, you look at the world we’re in, not to get too macro or esoteric about it, but there’s some serious problems in the world of people feeling powerless and not having power.

The disparity between … The rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poor. That’s increasing. That’s a fact. The concentration of power, whether that’s big tech, or just wealth in general, has a real potential devastating consequences now and in the future, even more. The question of why is Scott rambling about that as the response to the question of limiting the amount of VC in the company, well, you got to start local in your own backyard, and basically say, “If you’re starting a business, there’s a system. The system is venture plugs into Wall Street, Wall Street plugs into a system that exacerbates the lack of empowerment and the killing of a middle class.”

Listen, I’m going to do it by any means necessary to see the mission of Meetup succeed. I’m not putting principle above this mission, which is we have this incredible opportunity to bring wonderful life giving service to people, of the stories we would hear every day of what happens. The best thing in the world is when people meet up. Babies are born, and businesses are born, and bands are born, and all these things are happening. First things first is we just want to have as many meetups as possible, but if we could pull that off by not so much contributing to the system of inequality in the world, let’s do our part.

Aaron Dinin:

You just heard Scott make some interesting points about the role of venture capital in society, and how he saw Meetup in relation to that role. You can certainly choose to agree or disagree with Scott’s perspective. I suspect listeners probably have some pretty strong opinions about the topic, but what I want to emphasize here is the, let’s call it meta insight, Scott is pointing to, which is the fact that VC is about more than just money. Choosing to accept venture capital for your startup has other implications beyond the number of zeros in your company’s bank account. You should be considering those implications if, and when, you decide to take venture capital in order to make the decision that makes the most sense to you. The other thing I want to make sure we acknowledge when listening to Scott’s story is the implications of his decision to suddenly start charging community hosts using the platform, rather than continuing with the original model where anyone could create a meetup free of charge.

On the surface, the decision might seem like something that would’ve stunted growth, but as you heard Scott mention, after a bit of public outcry, Meetup grew significantly larger. Keep this in mind if you are one of those entrepreneurs who gets overly excited about user growth for a free product or service. While giving something away for free can certainly lead to lots of users, those users don’t have any reason to commit to your product, so they don’t have much value. In contrast, when you charge people, they’re going to be more engaged users. That’s what happened with Meetup.

Scott Heiferman:

Having people investing in what’s important to them, and I’m sorry that I’m broken record, but it all comes back to this theme of people feeling powerful, people being powerful. There’s all kinds of power. Sure, you can post on TikTok, post on Twitter, post on YouTube. That’s a form of creating media, and being powerful as a result, having your voice out there. There’s so many other facets to life. With Meetup, what we were doing, we were not a media company. We were not creating content. People like to just say, “Oh, Meetup is a social media.” No, no, no! We’re not media. We’re real life. It’s the amazing stories of what happens when a group of people come together and lean on each other, and look to each other, and support each other.

Aaron Dinin:

Well, it’s kind of a lot of what you’ve been alluding to the entire time, and I guess your general approach to technology. Technology isn’t so much about creating new things. It’s about enabling the things people have always been doing, but in new and different ways.

Scott Heiferman:

As you said earlier, how can the internet address some of the oldest, most basic human needs. Again, using the internet to get people off the internet. Technology’s not the enemy. It’s just how do you … Do you presume that it’s made for distributed community, or could it enhance? Here we are. We’re coming up on the 20th anniversary of Meetup. It’s in a couple months. 20th anniversary of Meetup. It’s amazing. There’s thousands of meetups a day, and things are happening, and it’s really great, but it’s not nearly, not a scratch of what I thought was possible. The fact that if you wanted to go on a run with a group of other people this afternoon, who are roughly your pace, and in your area, and want to run the same distance you want to run, and you know they will push you because you’re running in a group, you can’t press a button and get that running group happening like you can press a button and make a car show up on Uber. There’s a big opportunity to use technology to strengthen local in person connection.

Aaron Dinin:

What’s interesting to me about this picture you’re painting of how technology can and should be viewed, is that it’s very different from a lot of the current discussions around technology. Things you’ve already alluded to, like the metaverse, and blockchain, and NFTs. In my mind, those are all technologies that are, as you’ve said, continuing to serve the most basic human needs, but it seems like that’s not how they’re being presented. Is that your experience too? Do you ever feel like other entrepreneurs are leaning a bit too heavily on the, this is going to change the world, messaging? Rather than messaging more along the lines of, this is going to help make all the things we love about the world even better?

Scott Heiferman:

Yeah. There was a point, I forget which year that there was this guy who had the, what was becoming one of the biggest internet companies in the world, and met him in his hotel. His name was Mark Zuckerberg. We were talking for a couple hours about Meetup. He said, “What you’re doing is so idealistic, and so great, that people will meet up with people in real life,” but he’s like, “I just think that the opportunity is kind of limited. I think that there’s probably only about a hundred million people that will do that.” At the time, we were about 7 million users. I was like, “Yes! He thinks we’re going to get to a hundred million users,” but what he was really saying was that, this is a pipsqueak nothing opportunity.

His scale was like, he’s only interested in things with a billion that a billion people will do. I was just super excited that he thinks that we’re going to get to a hundred million users. Now, fast forward a few years, Facebook’s first super bowl commercial a few years later was, Mark saw the light that basically the optics of showing in real life community, and in his case, Facebook groups meeting in real life, was a really positive optic good thing. That was the center of their super bowl commercial. That was kind of interesting.

Aaron Dinin:

Out of curiosity, about how big is Meetup today?

Scott Heiferman:

Here we are, in the end. This includes some of the users who didn’t do much, but about a hundred million people signed up. Thanks to the new owner, Kevin Ryan, and the CEO, David Siegel, it’s going strong. It’s going strong. A lot of people say that the hunger and the need for real in-person community is stronger than ever. Meetup’s got a really bright future.

Aaron Dinin:

There you have it. The founder of Meetup, Scott, Heiferman thinks the internet hasn’t destroyed the need for real in-person communities. It’s actually done just the opposite, in the wake of the internet, the need for real in-person communities is stronger than ever. To be fair, I wouldn’t expect Scott to say otherwise, but I also find myself agreeing with him. Let us know what you think. You can find us on Twitter. We are @WebMastersPod. I’m on Twitter too, @AaronDinin. That’s A A R O N, D I N I N, or find me through my website where you’ll also find lots of other content about startups, business, and entrepreneurship. It’s AaronDinin.com. I’d like to thank Scott Heiferman for joining us on this episode of Web Masters to share his story, and the story of Meetup. If you’ve got any questions, thoughts, or comments for him, or you just want to see what he’s up to these days, he’s also on Twitter @ Heif, that’s H E I F. I also want to thank our audio engineer, Ryan Higgs, for helping put together this episode. I want to thank our sponsor Latona’s for their support.

Remember, if you’re interested in buying or selling an internet business, be sure to check out latonas.com. If you enjoyed this episode of Web Masters, I’m pretty sure you’re going to really like the next one, too. If you want to find out why, be sure you’re subscribed wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, so you get that episode as soon as it’s released. I’ll be back then. For now, though, well, it is time for me to sign off.