Web Masters Episode #68: Yvonne Marie Andres


GlobalSchoolNet - YouTube

Yvonne Marie Andres:

We developed a program called Doors to Diplomacy, which the US state department funded for 10 years. It was middle school and high school students. The idea was to look at global issues where you might have a different point of view, depending on what part of the world you lived in. You might feel differently, if you were in San Diego, about water quality, then you might if you lived in Tijuana, and so on and so on. The idea was to take these issues that could be slightly controversial, environmental issues, leadership issues, whatever they happen to be, and then present as much as possible, different points of view, and then maybe make suggestions as to how do we go forward? How do we address these issues? What are some ways?

This is where the world is right now. You can’t watch the news for five minutes where you don’t have opposing points of view, and compromise has sort of become a not cool thing for whatever reason. It’s like people dig their heels in and it’s got to be this or this. There’s no middle ground, but that’s not realistic. Teaching students, young people, skills on how to look at different perspectives beyond their own is enormously rewarding and useful. Yeah, I would say that one of the biggest reasons to do this is to connect people that they may not have come in contact with, to do some sort of a project together where they can learn more about those people, that culture, that community, that population.

Aaron Dinin:

People with different backgrounds and upbringings and who live in different parts of the world. Well, it turns out they have different perspectives on big and important issues. This isn’t a particularly crazy or revolutionary point to make, I’m sure. Yet, as you just heard this episode’s guest mention, we increasingly seem to live in a world where the connective technologies we use, rather than bridging our cultural and ideological gaps, they seem to instead be solidifying them. What gives? Why has the internet become a place for disagreement and discord, rather than communication and collaboration? Honestly, I’m not really sure, but I do know this. There are people who have spent their careers fighting against that, and we’ve got one of the best and most accomplished right here on this episode. In fact, she’s even in the internet hall of fame, thanks to her pioneering work around collaborative global education. She is Dr. Yvonne Marie Andres, founder and executive director of Global SchoolNet. Are you ready to hear the story? Let’s get dialed in.

[INTRO]

Aaron Dinin:

Welcome to Web Masters, the entrepreneurship and business podcast that shares stories from the Internet’s most impactful innovators. I’m your host, Aaron Dinin. I’m a serial entrepreneur. I teach entrepreneurship at Duke University. While pulling together these webmasters episodes, I’m usually focused on the entrepreneurship side of my work. The teaching stuff I do, maybe not so relevant. However, on this episode, we’re going to have a nice bit of crossover because our guest, Dr. Yvonne Maria Andres, is one of the world first online educators, and a true e-learning pioneer. That seems particularly relevant these days as more and more learning is moving online. There are, in other words, enormous opportunities in the e-learning space. We’re going to talk about some of them, but first I’m going to take a minute to tell you about this podcast sponsor.

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In the 2020s, the idea of having a class online probably doesn’t seem too strange. Maybe you’ve taken a digital course or two, or maybe you’ve been forced into a zoom classroom. Online learning certainly isn’t the norm, but it’s also not exactly wild or crazy, but what have I told you someone was helping facilitate those same kinds of educational experiences in the 1980s, 40 years before that? Well, there was someone. She’s the guest on this very episode of Web Masters. She was a public school teacher in California in the eighties when she got her first computer in her classroom and she had to figure out what to do with it.

Yvonne Marie Andres:

It was a very long time ago. Back in California, in the eighties, Apple decided to give every school in California one single computer. I was teaching elementary school. The way it worked is that computer was rotated from classroom to classroom, no training, almost no software. One day that computer showed up in my classroom, just in a box. My sixth grade students said, “What is that?” I said, “I do believe that’s a computer.” They said, “Great. Can we open it up?” So we opened it up and basically we learned how to use the computer ourselves, side-by-side learning.

Aaron Dinin:

What was the result of those first experiments? How did that propel you forward into the e-learning space?

Yvonne Marie Andres:

I saw how motivated they were. I began, based on that, writing some grants to get more computers in the classroom, so we had them there all the time. Computers were, it was very minimal, what they could do. It was sort of self-contained games, very little memory. What I then discovered was I was teaching very low achieving students that came from some challenging backgrounds. Some of their parents were in gangs, or in prison, or just not a great environment. I was looking for something to help them build up their self-esteem. What I learned is, kids love an audience. If I could give them an audience for their work and for their writing, that really inspired them and got them excited. We began this whole project, doing pen pals, the old fashioned way, writing letters, putting them in the mail, sending them to a colleague in England, sending them to England, waiting almost two months to get a return back.

When those letters came, my students were so excited and they couldn’t wait to write again. That was like a clue. Around that time, I personally discovered e-mail and thought, “Oh, this would be so much easier with e-mail, if we could do it through e-mail.” I began looking for other teachers that were interested in working with me on that and ran into a colleague, Al Rogers, who became my partner for 30 years working on this topic. At the time, he was a teacher down in San Diego, and he began working for the County Office of Education. Together, we were looking for different technologies that would allow this peer-to-peer writing exchange, or collaboration to happen.

Aaron Dinin:

Wow. We’re talking still early days of the internet, pre-web even. How were you getting online? What services were you able to access at that time?

Yvonne Marie Andres:

Back in that time, there were different services you could subscribe to. There was something called CompuServe, and there was something called the Source, and McGraw Hill Information Exchange, and eventually Prodigy. These were all dial up services starting at the low end with these things called 300 body modems, which were extremely slow, went over a phone line. You weren’t sending graphics. It was all text. But doing it from a school was very challenging. Most schools only had one or two phone lines into the school and you certainly couldn’t use it during the day to be sending writing.

Again, my colleague Al Rogers, kind of went out into the, I’ll call it the pirate internet community, and found some software that he was able to modify for education. What it allowed us to do is have the students write their stories, or letters, on a five and a half inch floppy disc, upload it to an Apple IIe computer, in the middle of the night when nobody was using those phone lines, it would send that information to the next location. We would determine where that would be. It could send it from California, where we were, to New York, or from California, to New York, to Europe. Sometimes it took several days to get there. Still a lot faster than postal mail.

Aaron Dinin:

That would’ve been the days of point-to-point networks like BITNET, or USENET, right?

Yvonne Marie Andres:

It was point-to-point, except that we developed a software called the FRED Mail System, which FRED Mail stood for free educational mail, and created a hub that all of the locations that were connected, and at the time it was a combination of K12 schools and universities, and eventually super commuter centers. All of that information went through this hub and did a sorting type situation and went to their final location. Again, the tricky part was being able to connect those phone lines, usually through the principal’s office, or through the nurse’s office, in the middle of the night when nobody was using those. We called it a store and forward. It would store it temporarily, and then when nobody was using those phone lines, it would forward it.

Aaron Dinin:

Why did you decide to build your own, basically, educational e-mailing network?

Yvonne Marie Andres:

We didn’t really think about it. It was something that we wanted and needed, and it didn’t exist. Prior to that, if you wanted to send somebody e-mail, they had to be on the same system as you. If you had Compeer Serve, they had to have that Compeer Serve e-mail address, or if you had the Source, they had to have that. It was expensive for educators, certainly not students and families. Yeah. We were able to shut up the system that stripped away the necessity to have those individual e-mail addresses. Back in those days, if you had a business card, you had six e-mail addresses, six different ones. Sometimes one person had one and one person had the other. There’d have to be somebody in the middle that had both, physically, to push those messages. We were just so excited about the potential and the possibility of connecting educators and students, and their communities, to do different kinds of collaboration, whether it was parallel problem solving, or writing newsletters together, or just doing research, talking zoos in New York, and zoos in San Diego, and zoos in London, and zoos in Tokyo, and so on, and having kids be able to really expand their world.

Textbooks were very limited, still are very limited, for the kind of information that you could find. Once we developed this software called FRED mail system, we started to get a lot of attention. Universities thought, well, this works for them. It probably would work great for us. We got some grants. We got a very nice grant from National Science Foundation to connect the FRED mail network, which at the time was probably about 500, what we call nodes, that were run by individual system operators, sysops. Many of them were not techy people. They were educators in schools or universities, and so on. To connect the FRED mail network to the supercomputer center network. That was our first connection from FRED mail to basically the internet, which again just opened up many, many doors.

Aaron Dinin:

You said you’d grown it to 500 schools just on your own. How’d you do that? How were you telling people about it and onboarding them?

Yvonne Marie Andres:

500 locations, but those are 500 school districts, so then they serviced however many schools. We called it a node. A node would be like a post office. A post office in a city services that many people in that city, or that community. Each node serviced all the schools in that district, or in that region, surrounding region, including internationally. We had a colleague from Australia, Greg Butler, who discovered this at one conference. We were talking about it, was so excited, he brought it back to Australia and set up [osie 00:13:18] FRED. Then we had another colleague from South America, another one from Europe, and so on that began bringing this technology to their own location. It was just up to us to find this connection, find a way to connect. Part of it was the technology, being able to connect. Part of it was raising awareness that this was a possibility. Part of it was, well, what are you going to do with it? We really started to focus on really, what is the purpose for collaboration? What kinds of collaboration can you do? How is that going to enhance the learning experience?

Aaron Dinin:

Could you talk about that? What’s an example of the kinds of collaborative learning that was being enabled by the system in the early days?

Yvonne Marie Andres:

We began defining different purposes for collaboration. For example, parallel problem solving. If I want to study the condition of trees in California, there are students in Taiwan that want to do the same thing, and students in Russia that want to do the same thing, we would develop an activity where they would go out, they would take pictures, they would describe how are the trees being affected by fire, insect infestation, drought, human development, that kind of a thing, and then share that information with their counterparts.

Aaron Dinin:

Just for context, was this all grade school college? What kinds of students were you primarily focused on working with?

Yvonne Marie Andres:

I would say that it was from approximately third grade, because that’s really where students are starting to be able to write and communicate, and up through high school, and then lot of university students as well. But I would say the most active participation was junior high and high school students because they needed less direction. Again, part of this was in designing the activities. It was never a one-to-one. We never wanted it to become pen pals. It was always, let’s look at some project and see how each of the participants can contribute. What are they going to contribute? And then put that together in some sort of a package that we’re sending to the partner classes.

Aaron Dinin:

Were these things you were doing with students, or more so that you were training other educators to do them?

Yvonne Marie Andres:

We’ve learned, obviously, a lot. We really try to coach people that want to get involved in this because I like to say it’s like throwing a party. You don’t want to throw a party if you’ve never been to a party. You’re not going to know all the things that you need to do and plan, and make sure that everybody has a good experience. When somebody says, “I’d love my students to be collaborating with other students,” we take them through a series of questions that will help them decide, which are the technology tools they’re going to use because not everybody has access to all the tools and we want to level the playing field. What are the tools you’re going to use? What troubleshooting is going to be in place, because inevitably, if you’re collaborating with people from different geographic locations, something’s going to happen, either it’s going to be weather, or technology’s going to be down, or a different vacation schedule, or there’s so many things.

You have to kind of build that into it, and really setting the expectations correctly. What do you want to get out of it? What do you want your students to get out of it? Do you want them to have an audience? That’s great. That’s one thing. Or, do you want them to learn from the other students? If it’s a cultural thing, how will you know that they’ve learned what you want them to learn? We do a big project between American students and Russian students. Going into the project, this is 10 years ago, we discovered that American students knew almost nothing about Russia. What they knew was completely incorrect and Russian students knew almost nothing about American students. The goal was to really give them a better understanding of the two different cultures in the two different countries. Part of that was exchanging information. Part of it was talking about things that meant something to them, like art, or music, or clothing, or street murals, that kind of a thing.

Aaron Dinin:

I just want to interject into the story for a moment in order to highlight some of the important educational concepts Yvonne is talking about. Specifically, you’ve heard Yvonne mention collaboration a lot. Collaborative learning is something experienced educators try to bring into their classes because putting students in conversation with each other is often a more impactful way for them to learn versus say, having them just read out of textbooks. However, if you’re a teacher, pre-internet, what kind of collaboration could you really enable? Collaboration basically within your classroom, right? But the internet expands all of that almost infinitely. Suddenly, as an educator, you have the potential to get your students collaborating with other people around the world. That was exactly the opportunity Yvonne recognized earlier than just about any other educator. She recognized the opportunity to enable a new level of global educational collaboration.

Yvonne Marie Andres:

Collaboration is a very big word that nobody defines the same. The first thing you have to do is get people to agree on what they mean by collaboration. By doing that, then you can talk about the enhanced benefits of collaboration. For example, electronic publishing. If I want to create a journal that has stories about growing up in my city, whether it be San Diego, or wherever it happens to be, and my students, they write these stories, we put it together in a book and they’re interested. If after they read it, they have any questions, they can actually go back and communicate with these students. It’s much more dimensional than reading a plain book. It’s much more dimensional than just watching a documentary on TV, or a movie, or so on. It’s very interactive. It grows with every iteration.

Every time we collaborate on a different activity, for example, there’s a program that we’ve been running since 1996. It’s based on the world fair. There used to be world fairs where people would come and learn about different cultures, different businesses, different ways of dress and so on. There really are no world fairs. So we, in 1996, created a project called cyber fair, which was an online worlds fair. The idea was for students to create virtual exhibits about their local community. We looked up the curriculum frameworks throughout the United States, and from other countries, and came up with eight different categories. For example, local history, environmental issues, so on and so on. The task was for the students at these schools to collaborate together, at the local level to create a virtual exhibit about that school, make it available to all the partner classes.

Here we are now, I think this is our 27th year, and we’ve kept all of these. We have a gallery of these projects, which now go into the tens of thousands of projects over the years. There’s a backstory where the school that participates has answered, what was their project about? Why did they choose that topic? What were the technologies they used? What were the challenges they overcame? Who did they involve in the community? What was the learning outcome? So on and so on. Anybody that wants to can go in and look and see if they want to do it, what to expect. It’s just all these recipes, basically.

Aaron Dinin:

Just to be blunt about it, why does this matter so much? What’s the purpose, in your mind, of fostering these kinds of cross-cultural collaborations?

Yvonne Marie Andres:

Where the world is right now. You can’t watch the news for five minutes where you don’t have opposing points of view. Compromise has sort of become a not cool thing, for whatever reason. It’s like people dig their heels in and it’s got to be this or this. There’s no middle ground. But that’s not realistic. Teaching students, young people, skills on how to look at different perspectives beyond their own is enormously rewarding and useful. Yeah, I would say that one of the biggest reasons to do this is to connect people that they may not have come in contact with, to do some sort of a project together where they can learn more about those people, that culture, that community, that population, whether it be young people and old people. One of the greatest projects we did was connecting elementary school kids with seniors in senior citizen homes. They were so lonely and they just were looking for something to do. These young kids would write them letters and ask them questions. These senior citizens would write back and they were so excited to tell them about their lives, their lives before telephones, their lives before TV, that kind of a thing.

Aaron Dinin:

Then you’re saying it’s about helping students develop perspective, right? It’s about helping students see from an early age that the world is a big diverse place with room for lots of different beliefs and ideals, as opposed to what seems to be happening, which is kind of the opposite.

Yvonne Marie Andres:

Absolutely. That is what is so sad to me, is that the technology is more readily available, but it’s not being used for the right thing. There was a movement back in the nineties, it was called net day. The purpose of net day was to connect different schools and locations. It was all about pulling in the fiber and connect them. My position was, “Okay, now what about a what’s next day? Once you’re connected, what do you use those connections for?” It’s like a rollercoaster because even today I mostly see traditional teaching, dissemination of information, the teachers on zoom, and talking to the class. It’s just really not digging into this whole potential of collaboration where students are learning to work in a geographically dispersed environment, which are skills they’re going to need when they go into the workforce. There’s very few jobs and industry where you’re not going to be forced to be working in a geographically dispersed environment. They need to learn those skills.

Aaron Dinin:

Do you think those skills can be developed much earlier on in the classroom?

Yvonne Marie Andres:

Well, part of my argument is we need to make this a part of the learning experience, where there’s guided learning, where there’s some projects where there’s adult supervision, instead of just throwing teenagers, young people, onto the internet where there are lots of negative comments, or bullying, or this or that. It’s like taking somebody that’s never been to New York city and just dropping them off in the city. You would never do that. You would prepare them. Here’s what you have to look after, and here’s how you keep safe, and so on and so on. Even though so much time has passed since I started this, education is still very slow to be working on this aspect of it. It’s sad to say. There’s lots of great innovator programs. I’m not saying that’s true in all cases, but definitely there should be more of it.

Aaron Dinin:

Yvonne, of course, has been trying to help with exactly that and creating more innovative, collaborative educational programs since the 1980s, and of course, technology has changed a lot along the way. In fact, part of what’s amazing about Yvonne’s work and why she’s such an incredible pioneer in the e-learning space is because of just how far ahead of the technology curve she’s been. For example, if you think video classrooms are a relatively new phenomenon, something that’s developed since the advent of technologies like FaceTime, and Zoom, and Google meet, well, I’ve got news for you. Yvonne was pioneering video classrooms back before some of you listening might even have been born.

Yvonne Marie Andres:

In 1992, my colleagues and I were doing collaborative writing projects for almost 10 years at that point, but it was just text. Maybe there were some minimal graphics, but it was just too hard. The phone lines couldn’t accommodate big files. In 1992, we got a grant from National Science Foundation to create the first video conferencing educational project. We used a product out of Cornell University called [CUCME 00:25:37]. The CU stood for Cornell University. It was very similar to what we’re doing now. Of course, it was a little bit herky jerky and black and white, but I can tell you that suddenly, when they could finally see people communicating like this, it opened so many different doors. Adding video, adding the live video part, makes it that much realer. As technology has enabled that, I think that’s really helping the learning experience. As we move into even more real experiences, there’s some new technology projects that are more immersive that make you feel like you’re there, make you feel like you’re sitting in the same room and talking with somebody.

Aaron Dinin:

Out of curiosity, what kinds of technologies do you believe help develop that sense of “in the same room” collaboration?

Yvonne Marie Andres:

I think the video component, extremely important. The other thing important is being able to do collaborative document sharing, whether it be brainstorming, or writing a grant together, or putting numbers in a spreadsheet together. Many years ago we did a project for Google. It was to have students look at ways that they could address the climate prices and what things could they do at home that would be more healthy. It was things like turn the light off when you leave the room, use two sides of a piece of paper, things like that. We had, I think, about a hundred schools participate, and we set up a Google spreadsheet. The schools were asked to put in their top two ideas and then everyone went around and rated them. Then, I think the top 50, Google put a big ad in the New York Times, crediting these schools for making these suggestions. It was very real. It was very authentic. They got to learn ideas from different parts of the world, different parts of the country, and things that they could do themselves, calls to action that they could do themselves. Visualization is a big thing right now.

Aaron Dinin:

Conversely, what are some of the gotchas with online collaboration that maybe don’t work so well? Because I think, at this point, we’ve certainly all been in online learning environments, or collaboration spaces, where it’s pretty clear the technology isn’t helping further, whatever the goals are.

Yvonne Marie Andres:

From the beginning of online learning, where it has not been successful is where it’s just a bunch of information and self-paced tests, CAI, computer assisted instruction, kind of like you’ve ever had to study for a driver’s ed test online, and you go through these questions. There’s a lot of that. There’s still a lot of it. Some of that is useful, but there needs to be a balance. The other thing is understanding the need for synchronous communication, as opposed to asynchronous. There’s a lot of exchange of knowledge that doesn’t have to be synchronous. I don’t want anybody to ever read something to me over video conferencing during real time, because that is not a good use of my time. It makes me very, very unhappy to have to sit there, and you ask somebody a question and they go, “Well, let me tell you the answer,” and they start reading.

When we do a project, we do a lot of meet the expert. We asked those people to send us ahead of time some background material that we can distribute to the participants. It could be videos, it could be writings, and so on, and they could learn about that. It really takes a lot of thought to make sure nothing happens during this 40 minutes that couldn’t be happening offline. That’s a real big part of it. I think businesses are going through that right now. I just hear infinite stories about these useless meetings, where people are giving reports, standing there and reading some report. These are the latest statistics. No, this is not a good use of our real time. Real time is very precious. Those people that can’t participate, how will they benefit from what’s going on?

Aaron Dinin:

Worth noting by the way, the point Yvonne is making here is critical, regardless of whether we’re talking about a classroom, or a boardroom, or anything in between. Just because you have the power to convene people from around the world for a meeting, or to collaborate, it doesn’t mean you should. As new technologies enable exponentially more collaborative opportunities, it’s also important to be judicious about how they’re used so they become enablers rather than time wasters. This is something Yvonne has been thinking about for literally decades, a lot longer than most people certainly. As the world is starting to catch up with her, she has some thoughts about how the transition toward remote collaboration and learning is going.

Yvonne Marie Andres:

I have mixed feelings. I’m excited that suddenly there are a lot of people out there that are starting to use these tools. I’m very excited about that. I’m disappointed that those of us that have been in this industry for so long, they’re not calling upon us more to help them get organized and make it better, because I see a lot of people talking about things that we saw those problems 10 years ago. I wish there were more of an opportunity to coach and guide, whether it be the end user, the practitioner, whether it be the teacher, help teachers use it correctly. Moving to online teaching can be overwhelming for instructors that have only been in the classroom. Suddenly you’re online and you’ve got 10 times as many students. How do you deal with it? There’s ways to deal with it. There’s ways to mitigate that. There’s some strategies that we’ve discovered over all of these years that I think would be really helpful. My mixed feelings are, I think it’s good, but I’m somewhat frustrated that people are still asking the same questions. I don’t know why. The answers are right there. Let us help you figure it out. This is such an opportunity.

Aaron Dinin:

What would be one thing you’d want to tell people who are thinking about online learning and innovating in the online learning space?

Yvonne Marie Andres:

I’m a big proponent of blended learning, not doing it all online. I think that’s not a good way to get a complete education. All of the projects that we develop are blended. It means students are doing some sort of offline work. They’re doing field work. They’re creating graphics. They’re creating videos. They’re doing whatever offline, and then they’re sharing certain parts of that, parts that make sense with their partner classes.

Aaron Dinin:

Okay. You’re saying online learning isn’t about necessarily consistently working with other people. It’s about bridging gaps between people to help them learn from each other in whatever ways make the most sense. Is that a good summary of your work with Global SchoolNet over the past, nearly 40 years?

Yvonne Marie Andres:

Global SchoolNet was founded with the idea of creating an online global schoolhouse where people can learn from one another and with one another. Most of the activities that we do are collaborative in nature. We are always looking for different ways that we can connect learners around different topics. Yes, a teacher can teach whatever subject it is, history, language arts, science, they can do it in a self-contained classroom, but what is the added value of connecting your classroom with other classrooms? It’s not that you’re going to share every little bit of what you’re teaching in that classroom, but there’s some things. What’s shareable? What would make it more exciting, and make it more interesting, or create an institutional history? For example, there’s a lot of robotic competitions where students go and they create robots. It’s really fun. You go and watch it and they have to solve some problems. There’s videos of it. But if you’re not there, you don’t really learn from it.

What we like to say is. If you create these different projects and you archive some of them, you create an institutional history that grows. Each iteration gets better and better because you can look at “Well, okay, they did this project and they investigated zoos in different countries, and this is what they learned. Here’s the laws and regulations about environmental protection in California, as opposed to other states.” They learned from that. They create some sort of digital story. That’s another big thing that we try to put push is that we want students to be able to communicate what they’ve learned. We want them to tell it in some sort of a story. It can be a narrated slideshow. It can be a video. It can be a podcast. It can be an audio. Whatever. But if you can get students to actually talk about what it is they learned and why it’s important, and then you save that, and then the next group of students come by and they look at it, and then they build on it. That’s very powerful. That goes back to the origins of the internet. That’s what the internet was originally created, was so that researchers could share their research and there wasn’t replication of research. Move things forward in a very fast way.

Aaron Dinin:

What Yvonne is describing here isn’t just about educating students. It’s truly the heart of much of the value all of us derive from the internet. It’s about having a dynamic, shared knowledge space we all can learn from. Seriously, just for an example, go back in and read the memos that Sir Tim Burners Lee wrote to his bosses when he was initially pitching them the idea for the worldwide web. Those memos are all about the value of having a shared dynamic, collaborative learning environment that we all can contribute to. In fact, that’s kind of what this podcast is too. It’s my contribution to that shared collaborative learning environment. I hope you’ve learned something valuable from this episode. If you have, I hope you’ll also take a moment to give us a nice rating and review over on your podcasting app of choice, share webmasters with a friend, and make sure you’re subscribed so you get to keep learning from future episodes.

In the meantime, I want to thank Dr. Yvonne Maria Andres for taking the time to share her story and the story of Global SchoolNet. If you’d like to see what she’s up to, and more importantly, if you’d like to get involved in helping all of her incredible initiatives, you can learn more on their website. It’s globalschoolnet.org.

If you’d like to share any thoughts, comments, or feedback about this, or any Web Master’s episode, you can find us on Twitter, we are @WebMastersPod. I’m on Twitter too, @AaronDinin. That’s A-A-R-O-N-D-I-N-I-N. I also create lots of, in the spirit of this episode, let’s call it asynchronous educational content about entrepreneurship, videos, articles, newsletters, et cetera, you can find all of it over on my website. That’s AaronDinin.com.

Thank you to our audio engineer, Ryan Higgs for his help bringing together this episode.

Thank you to our sponsor Latona’s for supporting Web Masters. If you’re in the market to either buy or sell an internet business, remember to check out latonas.com.

Finally, again, thanks to all of you for listening. We’re back again soon with another episode of Web Masters. Until then, it’s time for me to sign off.