Web Masters Episode #65: Jacob Lodwick


Vimeo Logo, history, meaning, symbol, PNG

Jacob Lodwick:

It’s really cool that I get to have this legacy that literally started off as a personal art project for myself and turned into an 8 billion enterprise video infrastructure company with a thousand employees. The fact that it started as that one thing and then became that other is kind of unbelievable. And it’s just a really cool thing in my life. I just Marvel at how circumstantially strange it all was. And it makes me think when you’re starting something new, you don’t know what it’ll become. I thought it was going to become something huge, but I thought it was going to be something different than what it was.

Aaron Dinin:

And what did you imagine you were going to build?

Jacob Lodwick:

What I imagined was way more kind of psychedelic and was like a fever dream. I started becoming famous in a small, early internet way. Like everyone in my school knew who I was. A lot of people in New York knew who I us and I just thought, oh, it’s only a matter of time before everyone’s basically live streaming their own dates and sharing everything. But I was doing that. I was connecting with that due to my own intimacy inadequacies and my own difficulty socializing. So I was like, oh yeah, now everyone knows who I am and likes me because they’re watching these videos. But then also crazy people started emailing me and haters appear. And suddenly I find, oh, I have to do PR and damage control because Gawker misinterpreted something I posted on my Tumblr and you know what, this whole thing of just putting yourself online.

            I feel like anyone who does it either, you somehow turn it into a business and you’re like Katy Perry or something, or you just get burnt out. At one point I had the most followers on Tumblr in 2003, 5,000 people were watching and commenting on every personal video I put online. And it’s like, where does it lead? You just develop all these weird para social relationships. It’s not a real network. So it’s like, okay, am I going to sell something to compensate me for giving away my soul and my privacy. So now I’m not even on social media, what Vimeo turned into, I’m totally fine with it. It doesn’t need to be this overly intimate, personal video sharing platform that it was when I wanted that in 2005. It’s really getting at kind of the technical core of what I provided, which was, I was tired of doing a bunch of manual technical busy work in order to get videos online. It’s almost like a dignity issue.

            You don’t have to be a genius to manually get a video online, but it’s a lot of work and you’re going to be extremely frustrated. So let one nerd do all the heavy lifting once and create a system that he and everyone else can just effortlessly upload video without having to get out of the mindset of the editor or the director. It’s like, okay, now there’s a product, I can open the upload page, select the final rendered video file and hit upload. And now anyone can watch it. If there’s a planet where there’s an internet and the people on this planet have video cameras, there should be a way that the things they make on the video cameras can be shared on the internet. And for some reason that was not really clear to any of us until I just randomly stumbled upon it as a byproduct of my own personal desire to connect with some of my friends using the most engaging medium I could find, which was video.

Aaron Dinin:

That was Jacob Lodwick and you hopefully heard him reference the thing he built. He’s the creator of Vimeo. The world’s most popular paid video hosting platform, but that wasn’t where Vimeo started. Vimeo actually began a few months before YouTube, possibly even inspired YouTube and might have even been on its way to becoming YouTube. If not for, well, Jacob’s strange and wonderful journey. Are you ready to hear the story let’s get dialed in.

[INTRO]

Aaron Dinin

Welcome to webmasters the podcast that teaches about entrepreneurship by sharing and examining conversations with some of the Internet’s most impactful innovators. I’m Aaron Dinin, your host. I’m a serial entrepreneur. I teach entrepreneurship at Duke University. And I research the history of the internet and specifically social media. As you might imagine, that kind of work has me thinking a lot about video sharing online. And when most people think about social media video sharing, they think YouTube, but that’s not where video sharing began. At least not according to this episode’s guest. And he would know he was pretty much the pioneer of online video sharing. It’s Jacob Lodwick founder of Vimeo. We’re going to hear his story. As soon as we take a moment to hear about this podcast’s sponsor.

            This episode of webmasters is being to thanks to the generous support of our partner and sponsor Latona’s. Latona’s is a boutique mergers and acquisitions broker. They help people buy and sell cash flow positive internet businesses and digital assets. That includes things like e-commerce stores, Amazon FBAs, content websites, domain portfolios, SAS apps. And if you’ve got one lining around, internet video services like we’ll be discussing on this episode. In other words, if you have a profitable internet business and you are thinking of selling it, be sure to reach out to Latona’s. They can help you find the perfect buyer, or maybe you are the perfect buyer looking for the right business to take over, Latona’s can help you too. Just head on over to the Latona’s website where you’ll see listings for all the internet businesses they are currently helping sell that website is latonas.com, L-A-T-O-N-A-S dot com.

            Yes, posting videos online and sharing them with friends and family or even strangers is pretty simple. There’s a good chance you’ve done it. Heck, there’s a decent chance you’ve done it dozens, hundreds, maybe even thousands of times. It’s pretty much as easy as posting pictures or posting text or posting just about anything else. A lot of the credit for the ease and accessibility of online video sharing rightfully belongs to YouTube. It is without question the world’s leader in video sharing and in many ways is synonymous with online video. But it’s not the company that first introduced video sharing that honor belongs to Vimeo. The multi-billion dollar publicly traded company that today is one of the largest, if not the largest paid platforms used primarily by businesses to host their online videos. But that corporate audience obscures the history of a platform that was well, anything but corporate it, instead Vimeo began as a personal artistic passion project of this episode’s guest and serial entrepreneur, Jacob Lodwick or maybe serial entrepreneur isn’t the right way to describe him. Maybe a better way to describe him, according to Jake himself is burnt out entrepreneur.

Jacob Lodwick:

I did 20 straight years of American internet entrepreneurship and was completely burnt out. So what I do now is I live in New Zealand and I’m basically resting 90% of the time. And then 10% of the time I advise startups and just do admin. I’m really not doing much right now, but for 20 years I did a lot of stuff. So I’m more than happy to talk about that. But I think the fact that I’m doing nothing now speaks to the nature of the work I was doing, which I think the best way to say it is, I was addicted to the psychology, the almost gambling psychology of making startups and that drive without putting breaks in there, burnt me out.

Aaron Dinin:

So how did Jacob go from passionate entrepreneur revolutionizing online video to being burnt out? Well, like so many of the entrepreneurs we hear from here on webmaster, the entrepreneurial journey for this episode’s guest began with an entrepreneurial upbringing.

Jacob Lodwick:

I was very fortunate to have access to computers very early on, both at home and at school. The family business on my mom’s side was media distribution. They distributed music and tapes and eventually DVDs to a network of music and movie retailers all over the world at American military bases. So I wouldn’t quite say we were military contractors, but the family was providing entertainment to the American military all over the world. And so from a very early age, a lot of my earliest memories are being inside a gigantic warehouse of records and tapes and getting the sense of media, not just as something you consume, but an industrial scale product that flows in and out. Record labels would send us their music, we would organize it and then send it out to retailers. And then the way it worked in the days of physical music was it wouldn’t all sell, and they would ship it back very reliably.

            The labels would send out a million copies, 500,000 sell and then the 500 that don’t sell get shipped right back, and you get compensated by the labels. Anyway, massive global media distribution network is my first memory. Of course, they were doing everything computerized. I shouldn’t say, of course, they were pretty cutting edge about it actually. There’s a trade publication from 1981 and they did a profile of my grandfather’s company. And there’s a picture of my mom, pregnant with me inside sitting in front of some ancient computer that had a database in it. And she’s talking about, oh, we can pull up instantly a sales report of how many copies of Pink Floyd, Wish You Were Here sold in Europe last month. So bottom line is my mom and her fan were running this computerized media distribution business from before I was born.

Aaron Dinin:

That’s really interesting. You’re basically being exposed to mass media distribution in utero. And then you go on to have this enormous impact on, well, mass media distribution. That’s almost storybook esque. And so what are your first memories related to computers? I’m guessing, they’re from pretty early on. No?

Jacob Lodwick:

Computers would kind of make their way home. We’d get a used computer. Maybe they would splurge on something for Christmas, so I had PCs at home starting from when I was eight or nine. And then in school we had all these Macs like Apple IIGS and early Macintosh’s in the early eighties as well. So I feel like not only was it a gift, advantage, privilege, whatever you want to call it. I was very fortunate to have access to these computers from an early age. And I was also fortunate in that the internet wasn’t around yet.

            And so for anyone whose my age, I was born in 1981 and anyone who’s older than me, if you were around computers there’s a very good chance that you got to develop an intimacy with a computer that had nothing to do with all of the other computers in the world. It was just, you have a PC in a room, it might have a modem that you might be using occasionally. But for the most part, I was exploring DOS, Windows, the Windows Registry, arcane DOS commands, and just exploring the computer. So I, I developed a very intimate familiarity with computers.

Aaron Dinin:

I can definitely buy that. I had computers slightly before the internet too. And I feel like my experience with computers as siloed devices is, it’s definitely different than how for example, my current students relate to computers. For them, they’ve pretty much always been connected to a bigger network, but eventually of course you do discover the bigger network as well. How did you discover the internet and what was your early take on it?

Jacob Lodwick:

I was in Miss Weiss’s class in eighth grade and she wrote her email address on the chalkboard. And I had been vaguely aware that there was some internet, something happening, but I hadn’t had access to it. And I remember her email address was like E Weiss, the first letter of her first name and then her full last name at UMD five dot UMD dot edu. And I was like, okay, that edu must be education. These dots are clearly parsing something and I’m trying to assemble in my head, what is the meaning of this address she just wrote on the page. That was when I was like, ding, this thing is part of my life now. And so I got one of those AOL discs, installed AOL version 3.0, had just come out with the, welcome you’ve got mail. And every time you signed in, it was just a dopamine hit of, oh my God, I have a new email. I would email my science teacher. I don’t think she had much to really talk about.

            And then AOL was mostly this walled garden, they had chat rooms. AOL created something that sort of was almost like a preview of what the web would be, what IRC was. They sort of simplified a lot of these nascent web interfaces in a walled garden, but then they also added something called internet connection. And if you click that from the main menu, you got a web browser. And so now it was on. AOL is just this launching point for any number of infinite websites. And I don’t recall there being any search engines I was aware of. So I would get the newspaper and comb through the paper and just see where I could find a URL and go to it, just to see it. And it would be, oh, in the movie section, the new movie Diehard 3 or 4 comes out and underneath, it’s like go to wwww.foxstudios.com. So I type that into the AOL browser and 20 minutes later the page finishes loading with some pictures of upcoming movies and I’m like, oh my God.

Aaron Dinin:

And when did you go from being basically a passive user of the web to actually building stuff on top of it?

Jacob Lodwick:

I had an older stepbrother named Mark, who was doing some early internet boom stuff. And he had some friends who had started a little company in Baltimore called Skyline Network Technologies. And this would’ve been maybe 95. So they hired me as an intern and I was doing logos and graphics and they asked me to learn HTML. So I learned that and I learned it by setting up a website. I called it Jake Net, which I didn’t actually have jake.net. It was skyline.net/tildajake. And it was art I’d made in Photoshop and early JavaScript experiments. And I was basically just learning how to do it because I needed to learn HTML as a competency for this job. I’m getting paid $10 an hour. I’m 15. And it’s a perfect upgrade from Photoshop, which I had learned like a year or two before. So now I’m doing graphics, HTML, some JavaScript.

            Now it’s time to create my first website that’s not just a personal site. And when Photoshop 4.0 came out, the big new feature was called, Actions, which I think they still have them, it’s just a macro. So you could have a 20 step Photoshop process to create a certain special effect for text or give your photos a certain look. So I was really excited about Actions. You normally have a tutorial in a book, but now you could just download an ATN file and with one click of a button, you could basically be sharing Photoshop tricks with people. So I created a site called the Photoshop Action Cornucopia, and it was all manually updated, but people could send in their Photoshop Actions and I would write reviews and put up photos and stuff, screenshots of what the Action did. And it never got very big, it was probably at its peak, maybe 3 or 400 visitors per day, but it really gave me a taste of, oh, I can create something as a 15 year old, that graphic designers from all over the world are using.

            I think there was a real aha moment there where it was like, oh, there’s no barrier whatsoever between me and this world of internet users. Not once did I have a sense of like, oh, I need to find some adult to help me get something off the ground. It was extremely empowering and liberating. And it’s like, okay, while I’m in school and not doing homework and not studying, and look like just some screw up. In real life, I’m leading this double life where I’m making myself into this internet creator and proprietor, and soon to be entrepreneur.

Aaron Dinin:

What Jake’s describing here is, to me at least, one of the truly incredible parts about how the internet reshaped entrepreneurship. Simply put, it made building businesses and big businesses way more accessible. To be clear, not easy, building businesses was and is still incredibly hard, but the barriers to entry are so much lower now than they were before the internet. Low enough in fact that a couple of college kids with an internet connection can start companies, which is exactly what we heard about on Web Masters episode number 56, featuring the story of collegehumor.com, a very popular comedy website launched in the late nineties by two friends in college, Josh Abramson and Ricky Van Veen. I bring it up because, well, it wasn’t long before Josh and Ricky discovered and wanted to distribute some unique video content being published by Jacob.

Jacob Lodwick:

By the time I got to college and I had a more evolved personal website with crazy internet videos on it, by the way, internet videos were not very common. 99, I’m making little viral videos putting them on my website that’s hosted on my dorm computer at RIT and Josh and Ricky had just started CollegeHumor. They see my website and they ask to host my videos and I’m like, okay, you can definitely put of my videos up, but your site kind of sucks. It looks like a GeoCity site, so let me help with some of the graphic design and the programming. And then once that got going, now, it was starting to get paid real money. It wasn’t a lot, but checks were starting to show up for $600 or $2,000. And Josh was closing ad deals on CollegeHumor and it was growing into something that was much bigger than the Photoshop Action Cornucopia.

            And it was making real money. And I was like, oh my God, this is my career. And so then we kept working on it during our sophomore, junior and even senior years of college. And then by the time senior year started, everyone’s looking for jobs and we’re like, [ahn, ahn 00:18:49], we’re doing this. This thing’s making 10 grand a month, which now that I look at, 10 grand for three or four people to split wasn’t that much money, but it was definitely enough to be like, okay, we’re not going to the job fairs. We are getting a house in San Diego as soon as school ends. And we’re going to keep doing CollegeHumor, which is four years old and is making probably $160,000 a year with no investors.

            We were too young when we started it to do VC. We were like 18 in 2000. So we got on board as the internet bubble was happening. But very fortunately what that meant for us was not that we raised VC ourselves, but that we ran ads for everybody who was raising VC. So there was this huge market for people to advertise their cockamamie VC funded startups that would raise 20 million dollars. And they had a tenth of traffic of CollegeHumor, and then they’re just paying us to advertise. So we maintained control and ownership. So there was no board, there were no investors, there were no VCs ruining our company. And so we just kind of organically built it four years. And then by the time we were done with school, we just did it full time in San Diego. And it was the most fun we coulda possibly had. We felt like kings of the world. It was amazing.

Aaron Dinin:

Ultimately the CollegeHumor team would wind up moving to New York, which was where much of their maturation as a company and as entrepreneurs took place. But as you heard Jacob mention for a brief period of time between graduating college and moving to New York, the team at CollegeHumor made a home for itself in San Diego. I didn’t talk about it much during the episode about CollegeHumor because it wasn’t particularly relevant, but that time in San Diego played an important role in the creation of Vimeo. In fact, in some ways it’s responsible for, well, the entire rise of online video sharing, which is actually kind of crazy when you stop to think about it.

Jacob Lodwick:

In 2003, I finished college and my CollegeHumor partners, and I decided to move to San Diego. This guy, Nick Gray is friends with me and my partners and he misses us because he’s staying on the east coast. So he says, Jake, I know you normally just make ridiculous comedy videos, but can you make some sort of video diary in San Diego so I can keep in touch with you and the other guys? And I said, that’s a great idea. So I got my video camera and shot a bunch of footage, mostly of me kind of blogging, but just video of me blogging. I’m just talking to the camera about my life in San Diego in the first week that I got there.

            And I called it vid blog. And I put on my website, honestly, it was pretty bad and boring, but it was still like, Hey guys, here I am. Here’s what’s happening with my life. And Nick was really pleased because it was so much more vivid than a phone call or an email, it’s video. You can hear the person, you can see them, it’s in color. You can see the environment. It’s kind of like being there. And I kept making these vid blogs. And then in one of them, I was visiting Nick, who was still at Wake Forest University and he says in the video, when I can’t hang out with you, I can watch your videos. And then I feel like I’m hanging out with you.

Aaron Dinin:

And that in case you didn’t catch it is Jacob pretty much describing the start of vlogging. Obviously it wasn’t called vlogging, but uploading personal video diaries about his day for his friends to watch on the other side of the country, that’s pretty much what vlogging is, right? And Jacob was basically the first person to do that. Or at the very least turn that into something that we’d recognize as public vlogging, which is exactly what he began to do, as he and the CollegeHumor team moved from San Diego to New York.

Jacob Lodwick:

This is 2003 getting into 2004. We moved to Manhattan. I’m still making these vid blogs. And the problem with the vid blogs is now they’ve turned from a weekly video update into… I was smoking a lot of weed at the time. At the time, anyone who knows me is listening is like, yeah, at the time. I was smoking a lot of weed as I always do. And I would just get deep in these trances of editing my vid blogs. These were supposed to be like, hi, I’m Jake, here’s what’s happening this week. But it turned into my peak artiste where I would film six hours of footage and then edit it into a seven minute impressionistic video with music. And you don’t even know who you’re seeing or what it is, but you can tell this is someone’s real life, a very artistic lens of what I was experiencing in life.

            And I got to show not what I was actually experiencing in terms of raw footage, but the feeling of what my life was like. So extremely personally revealing intimate home videos basically. And I was putting them on blumpy.org. And once every month or two, they were going up and they didn’t really tell you what my life was like. And so there’s a paradigm shift there where I was like, okay, I need to get back to more frequent video posts. Right around this time in late 2004, Sanyo came out with this, I think it was called the Xacti, X-A-C-T-I, and it was a tiny handheld video camera. It fits in my coat pocket and I’m filming 20 short video clips a day. I called them Vidbits. It would be Ricky talking at lunch or my view of the subway as it goes by. It was just like very vignette standalone contactless video clips.

            And I started uploading them to my personal site, blumpy.org. I’m like, hey, check out these Vidbits. Eight a day, some days. So anyone who wanted to see what I was up to would come to the site. And then I was like, okay, let’s build a script where you can set a few criteria, like what the song should be and what tags to use. And then it would grab the relevant clips out of the database and string them together and play them back as one continuous short film. And I called it automatic movies. And I was like, okay, this concept is going to be big. In the future everyone is going to be shooting short video clips of their day to day life and then use a computer system to edit them into coherent short films.

Aaron Dinin:

So that’s incredible at that point, you’re basically predicting online video sharing, right?

Jacob Lodwick:

So I was wrong and I was right. I was wrong that all the consumption would be kind of combined them into these larger short films. But I was right that there would be a culture of people shooting a lot of video clips and sharing them. And it ended up being something that looked a lot like sending Snapchat to someone. It was a lot less polished and a lot less sophisticated than kids these days, but it was really just raw footage at the time. So very easy upload based on the CollegeHumor video uploading script, just upload video clips off my little camera to my personal website. And then I was like, okay, this should be a standalone site. I remember I sat there, I tried to come up with names. And I still have the piece of paper, it’s on Instagram somewhere, but it’s all the possible names. Voomeo, Vidmoveo, Vidmo, Vimeo, every possible combination of video and me Vid-me-o, video with me in it. And it was very focused on me.

            This is where I have to admit all my psychology, everything that was uniquely Jake was manifested in this first video site. I would say among other things, I wasn’t great with personal intimacy. It was way easier to just put videos on the internet and let people watch them than it was to interact with people directly. So it really solved some problems in my social life. It was relatively difficult for me to have normal human conversations. It’s just that during my formative years, I was getting good at computers and those hours I spent on the computer were not hours I spent playing with kids and developing into an adult with a lot of peers around. I just got freaking sucked into the computer and became a computer genius and a social not genius. So my way to socialize was through video on the computer.

Aaron Dinin:

Okay. So you weren’t really intending to build a video sharing business for lack of a better phrase. How does this personal form of video expression evolve into a platform for other people to post on?

Jacob Lodwick:

So I get this first version of vimeo.com live around late November, early December, 2004. It’s actually hard to pinpoint the exact day, but it was around November 31st, 2004, vimeo.com goes up. And you can look at it on the internet archive, it was not a multi-user web 2.0 site, at first. It was simply a standalone version of Jake’s video clips, like a sub page of my personal website. So if you look vimeo.com v1, distinctly, it was different because only I could post videos and other people could watch them. And so I really wanted to expand it to be more like Flickr. This is very straightforward thinking, this would be better if it were more like the website Flickr. And then I started talking to my partner, Zach. So Zach was another partner in the parent company that owned CollegeHumor called Connected Ventures. And Zach was my co-product guy and amazing designer. And I still think he’s one of the all-time greatest interface designers and product designers.

            So I was very fortunate to have him around able to work on any new product. You’re really just not going to find too many people in the world who are as good at programming as me and good at design as Zach. So if you’re going to make a product from scratch, you’re often going to need to really get at least two people involved. Fortunately, we didn’t have to go on and raise money. I didn’t have to look for anyone. Zach was already my partner with CollegeHumor. So we started working on Vimeo in the evenings and the weekends and taking my [programmary 00:28:30] sparse single user website and turning in a Vimeo v2, which was very heavily inspired by Flickr. Also, pretty minimal because we didn’t have a lot of hours to cobble it together. But we got a version v2 launched and once that went live, I’d like to say it went viral and everyone knew it was special, but Vimeo was extremely niche early on.

Aaron Dinin:

Why was it so niche? Why weren’t people suddenly uploading tons of videos to it like they were doing with YouTube when it was launched just a few months later?

Jacob Lodwick:

We were militant about only letting you upload stuff that you had made yourself. And people would upload porn. People would upload music videos. Our mindset was, this has to remain pure. We actually were not thinking about trying to grow as big as possible. We were in New York. New York in 2004 and 5 was a tech industry, dead zone. There was us, there was Gawker. Really, they had no technical competence. I would actually give Gawker source code because they had so few competent technical people. And there was LimeWire, one or two other startups, but the whole startup scene in New York simply did not exist. Everyone was still shell shocked from the freaking internet crash in 2001. The funny thing is when we talk about the Vimeo history versus the YouTube history and the weird ways they intertwined.

            So at the time in 2003, 4, 5, there was so little video content on the internet. And one of the most prominent things was this daily show called Rocketboom, which was like an internet culture daily sort of TV, a news show, hosted by Amanda Congdon. And so she actually came to the office to interview us for CollegeHumor. And when she got there, she met up with me and Zach and we actually spent half the time talking about Vimeo, which we hadn’t even released v2 yet. And so we’re giving her a whole look at this version of Vimeo we’re building. We’re like it’s a Flickr for video. Vimeo is like video with me in it, and we’re in depth showing what the product looks like. And so that video airs on February 14th, which is also the day that YouTube was founded. The YouTube guys were planning to do a startup. They wanted to do a video version of HotorNot and they got together on February 14th to decide what would the domain be and what would the initial product be.

            I don’t actually know if the day YouTube founded they happened to see the interview with the Vimeo founders who were just laying out the product that hadn’t launched yet. Clearly the name YouTube follows a similar formula. It’s boob tube with you in it. Vimeo is video with me in it, but I don’t actually feel like they have to have seen us and been influenced because everyone was looking at everyone else and we were all influenced by other people. Vimeo was very much video and Flickr being combined along with my, and Zach’s personal tastes of how video should be done. And YouTube, although they initially thought of it as a HotorNot, after it failed and then they pivoted, they went to a Flickr for video, which, they were shooting videos at the time, they knew there was something there. So it’s not so much that I need to say, who copied who? And we definitely were all copying each other a lot, but Vimeo was the first one. And it did come as a consequence of this very long backstory of me doing internet video projects from 1999.

            And so for historical purposes, I think it’s important to be able to trace that lineage because this was not a bunch of entrepreneurs sitting around going, what could we build that would make money? It was the fifth or sixth internet video project in a row done by me, consecutively starting in 1999 and happened to be the first one that was not just some obscure Jake Lodwick side project, but got sort of absorbed into the Connected Ventures parent company and developed into a real business.

Aaron Dinin:

So you weren’t really trying to scale Vimeo in the same way that what the YouTube guys were trying to grow YouTube?

Jacob Lodwick:

To be clear, Vimeo having existed for a few months and done some press prior to YouTube’s founding may or may not mean that they saw it. Once we got going, of course we were copying each other and not just on product. It got to a point where there was some arguments with my partners, including Josh, where he saw it as really Vimeo was a potential risk to CollegeHumor. And I don’t know if he got into this, but he’s expressed many times to me and others, how much he regrets, not heavily investing in Vimeo early on. But at the same time, it’s the innovators’ dilemma, this isn’t a Josh specific thing. If you build a company and it’s making millions of dollars a year, it’s not necessarily rational to start a new startup under the same parent company, that’s pretty much unrelated, different business model and has unlimited open questions about copyright.

            And if you look at some of the many reasons why YouTube became the video site and Vimeo became a very legitimate public company, but not the main place you go to watch videos. A big part of it is the risk profile because when Jawed, and Steve, and Chad got together to make YouTube, they barely even registered the LLC until a month or two in, if it didn’t work, if they got sued or whatever, no loss, limited liability, just shut it down. Anything that happened with us could have possibly taken down CollegeHumor, which was our crown jewel and absolutely not something we wanted to mess with. So there was this ongoing tension the whole time between the interest that were more focused on preserving CollegeHumor and the interest that we’re more focused on developing this Vimeo thing.

Aaron Dinin:

So that, was the early days of Vimeo. It was the first social video sharing website, at least the first to get any significant traction and came out a few months before YouTube, but Vimeo was launched inside of another company. And there were legitimate concerns about things like distracting the team’s focus. And of course the enormous liability issues around allowing other people to upload video content. So to make a long story, slightly shorter Vimeo kind of languished inside of CollegeHumor, even as YouTube was exploding in popularity. But eventually Connected Ventures, the parent company of both CollegeHumor and Vimeo gets purchased by a giant holding company called IAC. IAC would go on to spin out tons of companies you’ve surely heard of including The Home Shopping Network, Ticketmaster, Expedia, ask.com and more. It was run at the time by legendary entrepreneur in business mogul, Barry Diller. And at some point IAC starts looking at what they bought with Connected Ventures and they realize Vimeo is a promising looking asset that needs a bit more attention.

Jacob Lodwick:

So finally, finally, August 2006, we sell to IAC and they have some interest in Vimeo. My partner, Zach pitches to them and he’s like, look, I know you guys are interested in doing something in video. It should be this. They had talked to a hundred video startups and they weren’t sure where to invest. Keep in mind, IAC is no joke, and investors know them better than consumers. Because IAC is this holding company and they basically purchase smallish internet companies and invest in them for a long time. And then finally, once they can stand on their own they spin them off in an IPO. So, everything from Match to Ticketmaster, Evite, Angi. Look it up. They’ve had 11 IPOs. And so they wanted to do something in video.

            Barry Diller, even though he’s an old school guy, he was one of the first internet evangelists. He knew something was coming. And so I see wanting to get into video was kind of a big deal. They acquired CollegeHumor because they wanted to have a content division. And then they were like, well what should our video play be? And was like, well we just acquired this Vimeo that looks cool. Let’s put $750,000 into it. And so we got our first budget for Vimeo late ’06, early ’07. The war was already over to be the dominant video site. YouTube won it by June or July of 2005. It was over. No one was ever going to beat YouTube after mid 2005, just simply not happening. The network effects are impossible. It would be like if your startup involved invalidating the force of gravity, this is simply bigger than a human can conquer.

Aaron Dinin:

And why is that? What did YouTube get right that Vimeo not necessarily got wrong because Vimeo is a successful company too, but why and how did YouTube win the war to be the dominant video site?

Jacob Lodwick:

It’s just, it’s impossible for me to talk about Vimeo without talking about YouTube. I hope to write a book someday with Jawed and some of the other founders or do some documentary because if you show the narrative of kind of switching back and forth between not just Vimeo and YouTube, but also Google video, which at the time we were terrified of, we were so scared. We were so demoralized when Google announced they were going to do it, but Google, I’ll pick on them because they’re a trillion dollar corporation. They did a lot of really inexcusably stupid things. If you think Google is smart, look at the history of Google Video web 2.0 is all about harnessing collective intelligence. And I think Google shows us some true collective stupidity, a mix of risk aversion, not understanding users, not understanding the nature of video as media. Just not understanding any human beings.

            But we were terrified of them when Larry Page announced, oh, we’re going to start letting people upload video to Google Video. Yeah. And then how do you do it? Oh, well we do it in a really Google-y way. First off to upload, you need to download the uploader app and then once it’s uploaded, we’re [manually 00:38:18] review it. So it won’t even be up for two weeks. And by the way, this is a big upgrade from Google Video. 1.0, which you can’t even watch video on. We’re recording TV shows and indexing the closed captioning track. So you can search for words that were on the news and then see screenshots of it. They had no idea what they were doing. And also Vimeo and YouTube kind of had no idea what they were doing, but through the persistence and innovation slash copying each other, copying other sites, eventually things locked into place.

            And for YouTube, that was something they actually had from before they pivoted to being Flickr for video. In the v1 of YouTube, before they even knew what the product was going to be. They knew they wanted to do something that took advantage of Flash video and they built a distributed transcoding pipeline that was built on Flash video. That even though the video HotorNot product didn’t work, they were able to just scrap that product and turn YouTube instead into something that was more of a general video host that had this scalable technology behind it. We were a year and a half behind them. People would upload QuickTime and we would embed the QuickTime video on the web player. And then finally we were like, okay, we’re going to build a simple transcoder where they upload it to a server. And then it gets copied to a Windows PC in our office, which is running this user interface program for transcoding video that has a watch folder. And then it transcodes it to a QuickTime, uploads it back to the server and now everyone can watch it in QuickTime.

            We should have been doing QuickTime. We should have been doing Flash. So there were a few other small decisions that YouTube made that were important. But by far going in on Flash video and building a scalable distributed transcoding pipeline was fundamentally critical. And it meant that they could grow virally and take off almost overnight once they launched YouTube version 2, whereas we were always dragging our heels. And then on top of that, we were militant about what type of content could be allowed. YouTube would take down commercial stuff, but honestly they couldn’t keep up with the content because there was so much being uploaded. They had scaling problems and one of which was they lost control of the ability to place the content from early on. And that always remained a problem for them.

Aaron Dinin:

Until Google eventually bought YouTube, right? For something like $1.6 billion, I believe. What did you all think of that purchase over at Vimeo? At the time that was just an enormous number for an acquisition and for Google to have just given up their own service to buy YouTube. I remember that making tons of waves around the broader internet industry.

Jacob Lodwick:

They had gotten smoked by YouTube. They were in the dust, three dudes smoked Google. It’s unbelievable. So Google after laughing at them internally, and there’s more emails than you’d ever want to read. If you search through Pacer or any other court record site for Google versus Viacom and then Google versus United Football League, they got a lot of emails from the Google staff and the YouTube staff. And it’s clear that Google just didn’t understand the stakes. They did not understand how important this competition was and they had to pay a fee for their blindness. They had to pay a almost $2 billion fee to finally get it and be the dominant ones in internet video. So late 2006, IAC is like, okay, well, let’s put three quarters of a million dollars into something that’s similar to something that Google just purchased for about $2 billion. And we were like, yay money.

            We had been making tons of money for CollegeHumor, but CollegeHumor was not run like a startup where you get a ton of money and hire a lot of people and do a lot of marketing before you have profit. It was me, Josh, Ricky, and Zach, and the revenues were only a few grand a month for a long time. But our costs were so low that we never needed to raise. So IAC giving us cash to invest in building up Vimeo before it had a business model was the first time in my life I got to be something more like a venture backed startup guy. We started building out a team. We hired Andrew Pile, Casey Pugh, Kanal Shaw worked on it. Some of these guys were CollegeHumor guys who got some of their time allocated for Vimeo. Actually Casey Pugh was the first one who we hired specifically to work on Vimeo.

            So he came in and like rebuilt the sort of janky PHP that I had built for versions two and three. And then we just kind of kept iterating Vimeo and Barry Diller really liked it. Different people see him in different ways. And he’s known for yelling at people and being mean or whatever. He’s known for being visionary. He’s known for being decades ahead of his time and blah, blah, blah. And my experience with him was mainly that he clearly thought Vimeo was cool and he knew that he didn’t totally understand it, but I really appreciate his intuition. He was behind the mini series, the movie of the week, QVC, Home Shopping Network, pay per view. He’d been doing video technology since my dad was in his twenties. Barry is one of the great entrepreneurs and American capitalists. And I didn’t have any financial responsibility.

            So I would just show him Vimeo and he would think it was cool and give us guidance. I would show him videos, friends of mine made, like there were these girls in Australia, high school students who would post videos of themselves, goofing around on the playground and edit it into funny short films. And I was like, see, and he is like, ah, and I’m like, but I like it. And Zach likes it. There’s 50 people using Vimeo and we all love it and are posting these videos. I don’t think he knew what it would be. And I definitely don’t think he knew what would IPO 15 years later, but he knew that we were passionate. He knew that we had some vision, he knew it was all getting worked out.

Aaron Dinin:

And it did work out eventually, right? Vimeo did IPO and it’s doing great today. So even though I guess you didn’t ultimately beat YouTube, clearly you did something right. Could you kind of tell us how Vimeo evolved into what it is today as a paid video hosting service?

Jacob Lodwick:

So after a few months they’re like, okay, Vimeo’s first year budget is going to be more than 750. It’s going to be 2 million. Then we hire 10 people. There was this business guy from IAC who joined us full-time named Jonathan Marcus, who was the best possible business partner I could have. And it was starting to feel like a startup, even though Vimeo was not even incorporated, it was still just IP under Connected Ventures, which itself is a subsidiary of IAC, but we’re sitting there. I’m thinking of myself as the founder. Jonathan’s kind of like the CEO, Zach is my co-founder. And then we somehow put together this team of 10 really talented developers who all are clearly brilliant and went on to do all sorts of great stuff. And we were just so concentrated and had this really clear mandate from corporate to grow the brand and establish it.

            And this really strong internal vision that had nothing to do with the corporate parenting. That was about us, it’s hard to put into words now, but just a sense, a spirit. A collective spirit that we were building this special thing, and we almost couldn’t explain it. We just had a group of people with similar sensibilities who intuitively understood the importance of making this Vimeo product better and better and better. And the users were increasing. It was making exponential growth, but kind of slow. So it still wasn’t anywhere near as big as even CollegeHumor, nowhere near as big as YouTube, but people loved it and we kept going.

Aaron Dinin:

How did you differentiate the Vimeo brand from YouTube’s in the early days as you were both competing more in the same market?

Jacob Lodwick:

The ethos of Vimeo was more about quality. I wasn’t just making internet films. I’d been in five or six film festivals. I was a legit young, short filmmaker, director. And I was insane about the artistic point of view. If you look at how any video player on the internet no, you hit play and the controls disappear. So you’re not looking at the controls and they’re not overlapping the video. That was an innovation at Vimeo because I, as a filmmaker, didn’t want the controls over top of my artistic vision.

            Our content, media, whatever you want to call it, it’s a form of communication. It’s all communication. And it starts off in the head of the creator and then they express it through the medium and then the medium is digitized and then it’s transferred to another person’s computer. It’s de scrambled decoded into the original form and then it to the mind of the viewer. So Vimeo and all the infrastructure in between is simply this middle man between the mind of the creator and the mind of the consumer. And I was a hundred percent thinking about things this way, all the time. And so I didn’t want anything that came across as noise over the signal. I didn’t want advertising. I didn’t want the video controls to play on the video. I didn’t want comments from jerks. I wanted clean layout. Zach wanted clean layout. We got it.

            We knew we were building something where quality was a differentiator, but it was still a very soft differentiator. It was like, oh yeah, YouTube’s popular. And people are mean in the comments and the video bit rate is low, but on Vimeo, the bit rates a bit higher and the layout is clean. It was like, [eh 00:47:18], what’s the narrative here? And Barry was like, you got to refine the clarity of this product. He was really straightforward. And I would go to a meeting and show him the new version. And, but then I’d be hearing that he was having business arguments with Josh, the traffic wasn’t high enough. And I was like, I got to deliver something here. It’s not done yet. It’s still being invested in because my billionaire boss has an intuition that it’s valuable. I got to come up with something.

Aaron Dinin:

And what was that something? What did you eventually come up with?

Jacob Lodwick:

I didn’t come up with something myself, but the team did. We were talking about new features and in 2007, we were like, we got to do TV quality. We have to match the quality of an SD standard television broadcast because the quality of internet video is so low. And so we started working towards this new sort of higher bit rate, higher resolution video that would smoke YouTube, which was still 360 P if not 240 P in 2007, it was worse than television in the 80’s.

            It was a hive mind team. And we all cared about quality. And somehow the concept of HD video came up and we were like, is that even possible? That’s just leapfrogging TV quality. HD is 12 times higher res or something. And so we somehow kept iterating and we pulled it off and basically went HD mid-October 2007. And it was the best week of my life because instantly everybody Wired CNET, Washington Post, everyone was like, oh, this is a freaking game changer. Like Vimeo, this also ran alternative video platform that’s not YouTube, but we don’t actually know what it is, is now the high quality video host.

Aaron Dinin:

How did you know that was the thing, that being a more high quality video hosting platform was Vimeo’s big niche?

Jacob Lodwick:

I remember that the stats instantaneously reflected a latent desire for HD video hosting, because I think within the first week, 20% of uploads were now in HD, which meant of course we didn’t launch the feature. And then 20% of our users went, oh, I should go make an HD video now. They already had HD videos. They just needed a place to put them. And there was literally, I think, no video host that did HD. So mid-October 2007, we launched HD, Vimeo now has taken its soft positioning as a high quality video host and translated that into very tangible numbers. The resolution of the video is 1280 by 720. It’s a progressive video signal that is 700 or 900 or 1500 kilobits per second.

            It probably won’t run smoothly on your laptop, but we are serving the video and it is HD quality. We didn’t really have the CEO, but like I said, it wasn’t a corporation at the that point. But I was part of the leadership team and crucially, we had a group of people that managed to produce this HD feature, not copying anyone. We just new we had to do it. It immediately took off. And then a few weeks later, one of the YouTube founders is at a conference saying like, oh yeah, we’re going to do HD as well. We’re like, ha, ha. We really smoked you guys. Who’s YouTube now? Ha, ha. That doesn’t make sense. We felt like we are the kings of the world because we had done the right thing.

Aaron Dinin:

Why was quality so important or appealing? Why did it, and I guess in a way, let Vimeo escape from YouTube’s shadow and become its own thing.

Jacob Lodwick:

Someone’s got to say, yes, the quality of the video should be unreasonably high. Of course any filmmaker would want it, but you know, how many filmmakers and artists work at these Silicon Valley startups? None. Not at the time. Every decision was made from the other side of the screen, you’re looking at the database, you’re looking at the numbers. You’re saying, oh, well the cost to serve a video goes down by 3 cents if we reduce the quality in half and we find that 90% of the users watch it anyway. So we’re still going to do it. It’s like in Fight Club when he is talking about how the car companies make decisions about whether they’ll recall a defective seatbelt and they just do the math and they’re like, oh, we don’t need to recall it. It’s easier to settle with the wrongful death lawsuits. I’m not saying YouTube was killing people. I’m saying that the decisions being made typically by a startup are not based on whether it feels like it’s high quality to the filmmaker. It’s just based on getting the numbers they want.

            And I think YouTube is an incredible and beautiful thing. And I’m also glad that Vimeo exists and they both had to exist. And so what is Vimeo today? Well, it’s not that different than what we hit in 2007, which is if you’re a filmmaker, you probably care about the quality of the experience of watching your films. If you’re James Cameron, you don’t want Avatar to be flashing and glitching out in the movie theater. And similarly, if you’re any of a million internet filmmakers, you want people to watch your video in high quality.

            So I ended up getting fired a month later, but before I was fired, we had already put the plants together for Vimeo Plus, which was the subscription service, which we finally had something to charge people for, more disk space for hosting and for streaming and embedding HD video, duh. That turned on, maybe around a year later and then instantly hundreds of thousands of dollars came in, in the first week. And then IAC basically just then spent the next 13 years steadily growing the business. Now it’s into their core competency of growing a business.

Aaron Dinin:

And since you brought it up, getting fired, what was that about? You launched HD video, put Vimeo on its trajectory toward success. How does that result in getting fired if you don’t mind me asking?

Jacob Lodwick:

Yeah, we could definitely talk about how I left the company. So after IAC acquired us, my priority was making Vimeo successful, according to my vision. And IAC who is now investing heavily in this had different visions. And it’s not so much, there was a monolithic like Barry Diller wants to be this, but Jake Lodwick wants it to be that. Five or six IAC employees were all chiming in on what they considered to be the priority. And I went back to kind of look through the list, through the timeline of what was this actual conflict I experienced with IAC and it’s reflective of them having an asset they’re putting a lot of money into, and they don’t know how it’s going to ever be a real business. IAC doesn’t invest in art projects. IAC invests in businesses and our art project was not yet a business. They were simply trying to turn it into one.

            So Barry was encouraging us to work on it, encouraging us to figure out what it would be. And then some of his employees, and some of his employees had particular initiatives that they wanted us to work on. So for example, there was a big one at the time where Facebook had launched their platform, where you could make an app for the Facebook website. There was, iLike and a couple others that went nuclear. They went so viral. These Facebook app companies are now worth $10 million or $30 million. Vimeo needs to do that. So they wanted us to do that. And they wanted us to build out the ad model. And they wanted us to redesign the homepage. And my boss, who was a TV guy named Michael Jackson whose from the BBC, he would literally make mockups of what the homepage would look like in PowerPoint and send them to me. And I would write back, I’d be like, Michael, we’ve carefully considered your suggestion, but here’s what we’re actually doing. You simply do not talk to your boss like that. And I simply did not give a crap.

Aaron Dinin:

Why do you think you were so resistant to his input?

Jacob Lodwick:

I was like, he doesn’t know what needs to be done to make Vimeo successful. I and the guys I’m building it do, so we’re going to not do what they say and we’re going to do what we think is right. And the great drama, when we look back at it is how savagely we were competing and how unambiguously I was, this insubordinate crazy founder. I was just a lunatic who did not belong in the conglomerate. There was no way I could work there. And I was doing all this public stuff. I was dating someone and we were dating publicly and putting on the Tumblr. So I was always in Gawker and other news.

            I was a lightning rod for insane proto influencer attention because I just tapped into a force that might become like the defining social force to emerge over the next decade. I just stumbled upon it. It’s like the Beverly Hillbilly’s, Jed Clampett trying to shoot a rabbit and he hits a oil pocket on his land and suddenly he’s a billionaire. That was me, but for internet attention and celebrity. I wasn’t a celebrity by the standards of Drake today. But I was one of the first people who went from being an absolute nobody that no one knew who he was, to someone who tens or hundreds of thousands of people knew who I was. So I was having fun with all that attention. It hadn’t yet destroyed me. It had given me a psychotic break. And then inside the company, I was just battling with all these IAC people who were doing their very best to make Vimeo into a business.

            We just didn’t, no one knew what form it would take. And when I look back at it, it was launching HD that was really the breakthrough. And I was paying lip service and we would work on these other ventures and these other projects that they told us to, generally. But I just couldn’t freaking take them seriously because they weren’t hands on the way that I was, and they weren’t visionaries the way that I was. I was a Vimeo visionary. And so was Zach. And then Zach left and the IAC people were trying to do their best to make us work on what they thought was going to make it into a real business. We kind of went off and did our own thing and kind of launched HD without, I don’t think they even knew about it. And that was a huge win, but it wasn’t really clear it wasn’t win until later.

            So meanwhile, I’m feeling incredibly frustrated with it. And so I schedule one on one with Barry, did some drugs before to kind of loosen up and make sure I really spoke my mind, which I did, which caused me to get fired. I got to the meeting with him and I’m basically explaining why it’s in his best interest to free me up so I can do what I need to do, which involved moving Vimeo out from under this Connected Ventures subsidiary of IAC. So it would report directly to him and I could get this middle management out of the way. It was this TV guy, Michael Jackson, who had didn’t really have internet experience. And then his sort of lackey, I wouldn’t call him a usurper, but a real scheming corporate. He’s a genius of corporate scheming.

            His name is Mo Koyfman. Mo really wanted me out the picture and Mo and Michael Jackson were just this diad that was making my life miserable because I definitely should not have a boss unless it’s Barry. And so I told Barry all this, and he was basically like, he didn’t say checkmate, but he was like, well, you’ve really just gave me an ultimatum. You told me either to fire your boss, or you’re going to quit. Really can’t do that. And then he said, goodbye. And then a couple weeks later I was fired.

Aaron Dinin:

And in retrospect, how did that feel?

Jacob Lodwick:

So that, really sucked to lose it. But at the same time, I had really made my mark there. And I think looking back at it, I was a huge liability. I was a huge pain in the corporate ass. The sort of crazy visionary artist contribution was finished a few weeks before I got kicked out. So I was gone. And then I just watched from a distance as Vimeo continued to grow. And I went out and did other startups and everything. And then as the IPO was starting earlier this year, I reached out to the new CEO, [Angele 00:59:00] and made friends with her.

            So I kind of reconnected and repaired that relationship a bit. And I recorded a video for the staff congratulating them, and she and I talk on the phone. And right now I’m just very happy to have a new friend who’s running the thing that I invented. And we can kind of check in, even though a dozen chapters of this company’s life have taken place after I left. It really has a life of its own. And at the same time, the roots are in the dirt and they’re there. And even if you can’t see them, the tree grew out of it, inexorably. The DNA, the embryonic, the origins of things remain embedded in the spirit, if not the flesh of it as it matures. So I can look at it and be like, wow, this giant public company is reflective of this snapshot of my artistic mind from when I was basically a kid combined with billionaire conglomerate investment in refining the business and just compounding it.

            Making it increasingly useful to more people over decades, which when I was getting started on the internet, nothing was decades old. So we’re kind of at the forefront now of these internet companies being decades old. And I have, especially some pride and appreciation of IAC and Barry for their patience and foresight. Because there’s so many crucial internet properties that go away. And then in 10 years, people don’t even remember them. And I’m just really fortunate to live in a world where my creation not just still exists, but it’s like the stock ticker is on the TV. Without fail everyone I meet knows what Vimeo is. And a lot of people can’t believe that they are meeting someone who created a household name. But it’s really easy to remain humble because there were just so many people around that time innovating. And some of us got lucky. Some of us were in the right place at the right time and happened to make something that the internet sorely needed in a fundamental sense.

Aaron Dinin:

And fundamentally that’s what both YouTube and Vimeo are in relationship to the phenomenon they would pioneer and popularize. They might have started as competitors in the online video space, but ultimately they evolved into two approaches to video hosting that the internet sorely needed. To understand the relationship between the two platforms, we need to understand that both can exist because they both do different jobs and serve different audiences by solving different problems.

Jacob Lodwick:

I think that the clearest way to look at it is the desires of a video consumer and the desires of a video creator are slightly different. And so you’re going to have a product that is better at serving consumers, and you’re going to have a product that’s better at serving creators. Now it doesn’t fulfill the creators need to have an audience provided. YouTube being a destination means you get an audience and that’s huge. But when it comes to just sort of the infrastructure of getting video online, you don’t want your professional video to have a bunch of related videos pop up or an ad pop up before it, it’s just a deal breaker. And the consumers don’t mind that they actually like it in a sense because they don’t want to pay for this. So you get the question of who the heck is going to pay for this giant entertainment platform.

            Well, we’ll have advertisers and the consumers can watch for free on Vimeo. It’s a little more straightforward. It’s like, no, you want people to see this in a clear way that costs money. You have to pay for it. Vimeo really hit the nail in the head. It’s like while it’s small, compared to YouTube, and shouldn’t even be thought of as a video destination, it’s huge among its peers of paid video hosting, a paid video hosting platform has to exist and Vimeo… And my understanding is, is by far the biggest one. Once you pay the entire formula changes, once the uploader is paying to host the video, you don’t have to have ads on there. And then you clean it up because ads are never or good if you’re trying to communicate something. Imagine if there was an ad cutting in, in the middle of Doritos, my sentence. It’s like what? It’s like schizophrenic.

Aaron Dinin:

This seems like a good time to remind you that this podcast is sponsored by Latona. Of course, I’m just kidding, but hopefully you see Jake’s point. Most of us are just passive users of the online platforms through which we consume user uploaded videos. But when we stop to think about it, there are actually two core approaches to online video hosting. There’s video hosting built for consumers. That’s what YouTube is. And video built for creators. That’s what Vimeo does now. And really it’s what Vimeo always was from the moment jake first began hosting his own videos on it. It was a place for Jacob to share his story, how he wanted it told. And I hope when he listens to this podcast episode, he thinks we did that story justice. I certainly know I enjoyed look earning it. If you did too, then you know what I’m going to ask. I’m going to ask you to share this episode of Web Masters with your friends so they can enjoy it too.

            And while you’re at it, we’d love a nice review and a five star rating on your podcasting app of choice. It really helps us as we spread stories like Jacob’s to more people. I also want to thank Jacob Lodwick for taking the time to share that story with us. And I want to thank our audio engineer, Ryan Higgs for helping us pull together this episode. And I really do want take a moment to plug our awesome sponsor Latonas for all of their incredible support. We wouldn’t be able to do this without them. So remember if you’re interested in buying or selling in internet business, be sure to check out latonas.com.

            One last thing before we wrap up here on, what’s been a bit of a long, but I think incredibly interesting episode. And that is of course for me to remind you that if you want more, be sure you subscribe to Web Masters on your podcasting app of choice. So you get the next episode as soon as it’s released, that’s coming very soon, but for now, well, I think it’s time for me to sign off.