Web Masters Episode #26: Jean Armour Polly

On Web Masters, meet the librarian who coined the phrase “surfing the Internet” while helping millions of people get online!


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Jean Armour Polly:

I was contracted to write an article for Wilson Library Bulletin, which was another monthly library professional journal that everybody loved and everybody got, everybody read it. And they said, “Well, you’re out there talking about the internet all the time. Can you just do an overview of what it is and how you get on it, and what you can do, and that sort of thing.” And I said, “Yeah.”

So in those days, what we had was cruising the internet. We had mining the internet, but none of those metaphors actually did it for me. Things kept moving around, it wasn’t like it was now. Things would go up, things would go down, things would get moved. You really needed some skill. Really, it was kind of an art using it back then.

And so, I looked down at my mouse pad and I had gotten a number of grants from the Apple Library in Cupertino, the Apple Library of Tomorrow. And one of the mouse pads that I have had a surfer on it. And it said, “Information surfer,” on it. And I said, “Oh, that’s my metaphor. Surfing the internet. It’s hard to do, you need some skill. There’re currents everywhere. Sometimes there’re sharks.” I said, “I’m going to call my articles, surfing the internet.”

Aaron Dinin:

And that was the first time the phrase, “Surfing the internet,” appeared in publication. The person credited with coining it was the person you just heard telling the story. Jean Armour Polly, also known as Net-mom. Are you ready to hear the story? Let’s get dialed in.

[INTRO]

Aaron Dinin:

Welcome to Web Masters. This is the podcast where we explore entrepreneurship and the process of leveraging new technologies to help improve our world by talking with some of the internet’s earliest and most impactful innovators. I’m your host. My name is Aaron Dinin, I teach innovation and entrepreneurship at Duke University. Before that, a lot of my research back in graduate school centered around exploring libraries in digital archives, which makes me excited about the guest we’re about to hear from. Her name is Jean Armour Polly. And she was a librarian who saw the internet and had what was at the time, a crazy idea.

Since libraries are critical repositories of information and knowledge in most communities, she believed that libraries should offer public internet access. That belief paved the way for millions of people around the world to discover the web. And in this episode, I’m going to tell you how she did all that. But first, I’m going to tell you all about our sponsor.

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A couple of times during my conversation with Jean, she referred to herself as being a bit of a unicorn. By that she meant there weren’t a lot of people like her back when she was making her mark on the web. And I got to tell you, as someone who’s been relentlessly researching the pioneers of the early web for this podcast, I think she might be right. Jean Armour Polly’s enthusiasm for the internet, especially all the way back in the 1980s, is incredibly unique. In general, at the time there just weren’t a lot of people like her who A, used the internet and B, recognized its enormous potential.

Beyond that, the people who were excited about the internet were almost exclusively computer scientists, or similar types of engineers at universities, but that’s not what Jean was studying.

Jean Armour Polly:

My undergraduate major was medieval studies actually, and that got me as far as grad school. So I went to library school. Now they call it information science, but I got my BS in Library Science from Syracuse University, and then stayed on for the Master’s in Library and Science. And I thought, what I would do is become a rare books librarian, but there’s few and far between jobs in that. But I did like working in the archives and fooling around with the really old manuscripts, and archival papers of poets and that sort of thing. I enjoyed that, but I’m 68 years old now, and I graduated in 1975.

And in those days, really your choices were school librarianship or public librarianship. And there were no jobs then either, so what I did was ride my horse and cross country ski for a while. And then I volunteered at my local public library, and that was in, I guess, 1976 that started. And so, I worked as a public librarian for about 16 years.

Aaron Dinin:

So how did that bring you to computers?

Jean Armour Polly:

While I was in library school, one of the things that was up and coming was some time sharing computers that they had there. And you could take free courses in Fortran and Basic, and that sort of thing. And you would key punch on a machine and it would come out with these cards with little holes in them, and you would take your stack of these cards into the system operators. And they were like the priests of this magical big box that filled up a big room. And you would carefully just timidly hand over your stack of cards and hope that your program would run, and then you’d go away. And then after a while, you come back and you’d get a print out that said that you had a mistake on one of the first few cards, and your job was thrown out.

So that’s the way it used to be. I took those courses and I got really kind of excited about it. And my dad was an engineer with General Electric, and so he was working with computers a lot in the early days. They’re the same timeshare type of thing. And the ground was fertile for me to be really interested in this somehow.

Aaron Dinin:

How did you end up carrying that interest over into public libraries, and how were libraries using computers at the time?

Jean Armour Polly:

In Library Land, I went to a conference, the New York State Library Conference in about 1980, I guess it would have been a fall of 1980. And I saw schools were getting microcomputers and I thought, “Well, why should schools have these? And just the school kids learn how to use these, but adults and older people and other mere mortals that weren’t in school, how were they going to get this knowledge?” And they weren’t in homes yet, microcomputers weren’t in homes yet, but they were in schools. So I started agitating to my library board to get a microcomputer. And the big thing was why would anybody go to a library to use a computer? Why would anyone do that?

Because really, there wasn’t a whole lot, but once we got one, we had so many people that would sit through a little class to learn how to load a floppy disc into the drive, and get a little blue sticker on their library card that showed that they could sign up for computer time. And we had computer time booked weeks and months ahead, it was crazy. We only had one computer. So it set the stage for me really advocating for public access technology. And I wrote a couple of books about that, just basically for the library market, how important I thought that was.

Public access technology in the early ’80s was a typewriter that the public could use, that was pretty much it. And maybe you had a copier. Library Land was a little bit slow to embrace public computing, but I did a lot of talks and a lot of articles, and did a bunch of evangelizing about it early on.

Aaron Dinin:

That was still pre-public internet though, right? But I know your focus ultimately was more so internet than computers. So when did you make that leap?

Jean Armour Polly:

In about 1983, we got a modem. The flood gates opened then because people were starting to buy these modems, and they didn’t really have any place to call. There wasn’t AOL yet. There certainly wasn’t internet yet. This would have been ’83 I think, we put up an electronic bulletin board system. A lot of people have never heard of it and it basically that’s what it was. We didn’t have a motor pool, we had one modem. So we hooked it up to our phone line at night when the library was closed, and only one person could call it a time. They’d get the modem and then they’d get this menu driven system, there were no graphics or anything.

We set up like the Dewey Decimal System. If you wanted to talk about religion, it was in the 200s and it was crazy. But anyway, that’s what we did. And we got about a 1,000 calls a month, even though we were just open at night, because there was this untapped demand really like, “Oh, I got this modem. I’m a hobbyist now. Who do I call with this?”

Aaron Dinin:

And what other libraries were doing these kinds of things at the time?

Jean Armour Polly:

There were home hobbyists that ran bulletin board systems, but there really wasn’t a public library that did it. There was one in, I think, Chicago and that was about it. So then there was us, and Upstate New York, little library running this, it was bold. So we did, it was very successful. I could go on and tell you a lot of stories about that, but we ran that for about three years. I was the system operator for it and my pseudonym was Aunt Libby. And there was a whole backstory about her and people wanted to come to the library and meet her and everything. And they would come to the library, they wanted to see our system. And they were expecting a room-sized computer with all kinds of wires going to it.

And of course, it was a little Apple II with two disc drives. So we had a lot of fun with that, but we finally closed it down because really, we get to be sort of redundant because AOL was out and I think GED, GE ran something. The Source, they ran and there were other outlets where people could do it better and do it full time. So we got out of the BBS business early on, but we still had opened up the public computing in 1981.

Aaron Dinin:

So in your BBS community, what kinds of things were you seeing people doing?

Jean Armour Polly:

Oh, the BBS? Basically it was a community building thing really. Although probably, I did the first online reference questions for it, because people would ask me for book suggestions or reference questions online like that. Eventually, we had a dedicated line for it, so it was up all the time. So people could page the system operator, and so all the time we would hear a little bell go off and then somebody would go over and see what the person wanted. So it was just really another doorway into the library at that point. But we used it, we talked to people a lot about libraries, evangelize libraries, but mostly they were talking to each other.

We had some eyeball things, we had a never-ending story that we wrote that people just kept adding to the story that it went on for… I don’t know how many pages this story ended up, but this community wrote this story. And then they wanted to get together and have a picnic, a real picnic. And they wanted to meet Aunt Libby. So we had a real picnic in the local park and everybody came to it and met each other. And one of the regulars on the BBS, his name was Mike. He would dial in everyday and discuss things with people. And it was everything from science fiction to philosophy and news. It was anything really.

And anyway, he would dial in everyday and we didn’t know anything about him really. Well, one day his grandmother called me. She says, “Mike lives with us.” He’s a teenager. We found out. She said, “Mike lives with us,” and she said, “He really wants to come and meet you guys.” And, “Sure, come on in.” And she said, “Well, I want to prepare you for him.” I said, “Okay.” And she said, “Well, Mike is homeschooled. He has mental problems and he tried to commit suicide, and he shot himself in the face, and he wears a full surgical mask all the time. I don’t want you to be surprised when you see him.”

So he came in and we met him and it was great, but it was shocking to see him. We all knew him because we talked to him every day. We went to the picnic and everybody, “You’re Mike, I’m so happy to meet you.” And really, the whole physical thing wasn’t even a barrier anymore. And that’s when I realized that ASCII was like the great leveler of things and that it really broke down all the barriers of age and ability. And it was like an aha moment for me like, “This is really a powerful thing and we should be paying attention to this a lot more than we are.”

Aaron Dinin:

It is a powerful thing. What Jean is talking about here is the ability for the internet to democratize information, connect the world and give people like Mike opportunities to join communities they otherwise wouldn’t have access to for any number of reasons. Let’s be honest, those qualities of the internet don’t always lead to good outcomes. In that sense, the internet is like any incredibly powerful technology.

Used properly, it can do amazing things. Used poorly, it can create lots of damage. But to Jean’s immense credit, she recognized that it wasn’t her job to tell people what they could and couldn’t use the internet for. Her role was to help provide access and educate people about how to best use it.

Jean Armour Polly:

I still say it that librarians are really born, not made. In those days, librarians did have the secret passwords into large online databases and they were expensive. You pay for time on them, it wasn’t just, you bought a subscription and you had unlimited access. You paid for time and you had to search them with Boolean logic. And it wasn’t something that just a person off the street really could do. I hated that. I wanted everybody to be able to know everything because that’s the way I am.

At the time, I thought this is really important to have access to stuff. And now, it’s a social equity issue. As far as we’re concerned, do you have access to medical information? How do you apply for a job anymore? They’re all fill out the application online. So many things, and you need access to broadband too. I figured this out what the potential would be and thought libraries really need to be in this space. Yes, we circulate bestsellers, but yeah, we’re also in the connecting business, connecting people to information and knowledge. And how can I leverage what I know about organizing information so that a user can find it with technology? How can I do that?

Aaron Dinin:

Yes, Jean Armour Polly helped usher in public computing, making computers and internet access accessible for more people. It’s a bit of a strange concept to think about today because the internet is so ubiquitous, but a big reason the internet is so ubiquitous today is because of the herculean efforts of people like Jean. And by the way, for what it’s worth, public computing wasn’t the only computer access initiative jean helped pioneer.

Jean Armour Polly:

We also circulated software, which was another thing that nobody was doing. That got the attention of software producers who didn’t like it so much. And actually, they tried to stop it, so we ended up working with the American Library Association and they actually wrote something into the copyright law that said that libraries could circulate software. So that was good times. I still have the coaster I stole from the Senate hearings, whatever.

Aaron Dinin:

Wait a minute. So you successfully petitioned the US government to amend copyright laws so libraries could rent software? That’s pretty impressive.

Jean Armour Polly:

Well, we also had video cassettes at the time and of course, there was already Blockbuster and whatever, where you could go in and rent video cassettes set at a store. I don’t think Blockbusters are around anymore, but they used to be. So you would go and you would rent a couple of VHS tapes for three days or something. Libraries were already doing that for video tapes and CDs, and whatnot, and books of course. But software was a new thing and they didn’t like it too much. We circulated for, I think, six different platforms, so we had a pretty big collection of stuff. And they didn’t like it, but they finally went along with it, and it did have a sunset clause but nobody ever seemed to really care about it.

I don’t know what happened to that, the sunset clause, where it should have gone away because I think libraries still circulate software. So software was kind of hard to get and it was expensive, and there wasn’t a lot of freeware out there at the time. So I think there was around 87 or so. I’d have to look and see, but yeah, that was fun. It was very popular.

Aaron Dinin:

If Jean had just been championing internet access and other digital access initiatives from a small public library in Upstate New York, we probably wouldn’t be talking about her today. However, eventually her unique beliefs and work started getting noticed outside of her community. That began in 1991 when she wound up back on the radar of her alma mater Syracuse University.

Jean Armour Polly:

I got my first internet account in 1991 and I had to beg it from Syracuse University. I just wanted it because I wanted to fool around on the internet, see what was there. And they said, “What is the nature of your research?” Well, you can’t just say, “Well, I just want to fool around.” So I don’t know, I made something up about the utility of the internet for public libraries or something. And because of that, I got a phone call one day from the JM Kaplan Foundation. Sitting at my desk, they called me out of the blue and they said, “What would you do with $65,000?”

I said, “Well, I’ll tell you what I would do with it, but if you call in a library up the street, they’re going to want to pay their electric bill, or they’re going to want to put in a bathroom, or they’re going to want to do something like that. So I don’t know. You really want to call me?” And they said, “Yeah, we’re calling you.” I said, “Well, I’d like to do a study on public libraries and the internet.” So they said, “Well, great. We’ll write you a check.”

It was the easiest grant I ever got, and they wrote me a check, sent me the money. I hired a social scientist to actually do the study because that’s not my background. He was well-known in the library field, Dr. Charles Folklore. I hired a couple of people to help. We selected, I think it was five libraries and an Indian nation school. And I worked with Apple Computer, they gave me equipment. They asked for a lot, then they asked for more. I was moving from the library to the New York State Education and Research Network, NYSERNet, which was a T1 regional network in New York State.

It was an academic and worked with government agencies, network universities, anybody that had government contracts like Kodak or Xerox, had accounts on NYSERNet, but not mere mortals. I went to work for them in the late part of ’92, and they donated connections. Kaplan gave me the money to actually do the study and do a video and do a book basically on it, and Apple gave us the equipment. So out in these rural libraries, they suddenly got internet, dial up internet. And it was amazing what happened. Lots of great stories came out of that. That was called Project GAIN.

Aaron Dinin:

That was Project GAIN, G-A-I-N which stands for Global Access Information Network. It was a landmark study in the history of the internet because it was basically trying to answer the question, “is this internet thingy capable of providing useful information to average consumers?” Well, that sounds like a ridiculous question to ask now, back in 1992, that question wasn’t so crazy. In fact, a lot of Jean’s peers at the time thought the answer was, “No.” It doesn’t have value because the information isn’t reliable enough.

Jean Armour Polly:

I have to say too, that in those days, I got a lot of pushback from other libraries that really considered the internet like a competitor, and didn’t want it in libraries, didn’t see the utility of it. We want to be the guardians and the caretakers of information, all this stuff out there is unvetted. And a lot of it is wrong and Wikipedia is horrible. And well, it was kind of bad at the beginning, but there was a lot to what they said, but not to just slam the door on it and say, “Let’s not look at this.”

And the other thing that I did was say, “Okay, I hear you, but let’s try to make it better. Let’s get a seat at the table where the policies are being made. Let’s drive it where we want to take it, not just sit back and be run over.”

Aaron Dinin:

Jean’s work on Project GAIN propelled her into the ranks of the early web evangelists as she worked out of NYSERNet, a nonprofit internet service provider in New York that was trying to expand access to the internet. Pretty soon, she was flying all over the country to give talks, writing columns and influential journals, and becoming a source of information for the press about this new internet phenomenon quickly spreading around the world.

Jean Armour Polly:

When I was working for NYSERNet, I did a lot of interesting stuff with them. One of the things that I did was evangelize to people that had never heard of the internet. And so, I talked a lot to reporters. I would call up people like the science editor for the New York Times and say, “Hey, this internet thing, have you heard of it?” And really they hadn’t, and then I would give them free accounts on a dial-up service that we had at the time. I would give them accounts and I would walk them through.

That’s how the whole Net-mom thing happened because I was letting them take baby steps on the internet, and helping them. And the reason I was doing that was building up some momentum so that they would write about the internet and they would learn to love it like I did. And they would guide where some cool stuff was and how they could use it, again in their jobs to further what they were doing.

Aaron Dinin:

As you heard, this is where Jean starts becoming known as the nurturing mother of the internet, aka Net-mom. While it certainly relates to Jean’s caring and motherly approach to helping people learn their way around the virtual world. It’s also a term that adds some critical context to the role Jean played in the growth of the internet.

Jean Armour Polly:

People call me the internet mom. We heard about the fathers of the internet all the time, Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn and Tim Berners-Lee, but there weren’t really mothers of the internet being touted. And I was out there and I was helping everyone take their baby steps, whether it was librarians or reporters, or TV personalities, or whoever it was.

They called me the internet mom, and then when I was starting my own business, I just decided to trademark Net-mom as a shortened version. I had that on my license plate too, on my car.

Aaron Dinin:

In addition to being a great license plate, Jean’s title of Net-mom is an important reminder that the growth of the internet wasn’t all thanks to a bunch of computer scientists dudes writing code. Women like Jean Armour Polly, Yvonne Andres and Tracy Parker were some of the most important voices in helping make sure more people had access to the internet and knew how to use it. They are in a lot of ways, responsible for the rapid global saturation of the internet and world wide web, making sure people weren’t getting left behind. One great example of this comes from Jean’s work with the Oneida Indian Nation and Upstate New York.

Jean Armour Polly:

One of the organizations I worked with was the Oneida Indian Nation of New York, and I helped them develop their first website and the first domain of a native American nation on the internet at all. And they were the first ones to claim space on the internet, and they got their website up, and everything had to go through the clan mothers to get blessed as to whether or not it was secret nation stuff and couldn’t go up, or it could go up.

And they liked the idea of being able to put their own information up themselves without having it filtered through a white carpet bagger publisher or something like that, is how they expressed it to me. So they loved that idea. So they had their website up. I got a phone call one day from Jack Gill who was in the Clinton administration. And he was in charge of putting up the first White House webpage.

And he said, “We built this webpage and we’re showing it to different constituencies. It’s not up yet. We’d really like to show it to the Oneida Nation because we haven’t shown it to any native groups yet.” Said, “Okay, we can facilitate that.” So anyway, a bunch of clan mothers came over because we had a big screen, a big training room and everything. So they came over and Jack is on the phone, and he gave us the secret URL to where the White House webpage was being built.

So we’re looking at it, the clan mothers are looking at the top menu items, and one of them was treaties with other nations. They got very excited about that, and so Jack clicked there to show them what was under it. And it was all NATO and stuff like that. And they were shocked, the native American treaties were not there. And it was probably like what we used to call a head in the waste basket moment for Jack because oh my gosh, here I am talking to this nation and there was no Indian treaties here.

And they said, “You must remember your treaties because if you don’t, who will?” They would say this to their children and their grandchildren. So Jack said, “Well, are they online anywhere?” Well, they weren’t. So Oneida put them up, the treaties that they had with the United States. And then the White House webpage pointed to the Oneida page for a while.

Aaron Dinin:

The other place Jean’s advocacy work was incredibly influential was for children, both in terms of making sure they had access to the internet, and that they could be safe when online.

Jean Armour Polly:

While I was evangelizing and the internet was getting bigger and bigger, worse and worse, things were getting on it. People were saying, “Oh, this shouldn’t be in schools, children shouldn’t be on this.” And I got to thinking that would be terrible because for one thing, there’s a lot of good stuff on there. For another thing, I wanted to see what kids had to say. I wanted to hear their voices, and kids are pretty smart. I wanted to know what they were thinking. So I tried to get my friends to quit their jobs and write a book about this, but they didn’t.

So eventually I said, “Okay. Well, maybe I can sell a book contract.” So my friend Harley Hahn was writing The Internet Yellow Pages. And I said, “Hey, I’d like to pitch The Kids and Family Yellow Pages as we’re McGraw-Hill, your publisher.” And he helped me out and I pitched to them and they bought the contract. So then I quit my job, which I don’t recommend because it takes you a while to write this book.

The idea of the book was it would sift through. Just like populating a public library, I would populate a collection of good websites for kids that had good information, had some sort of authority behind them, that were true, that were updated. There was stuff out there, but who do you trust to tell you about it? So that’s what I did, and the first edition had I think maybe 1,600 or so sites in it. And just like writing an encyclopedia, there was everything in there. And so every site, then we have a little annotation about why it was good and who it was for, and what you could do on the site, and that sort of thing.

Ultimately, it was six additions of that. And the last book I think… I don’t know, had maybe 3,500 some sites in it. We sold, I don’t know, a quarter of a million copies of it around the world. It had a Chinese edition and a UK edition and… Oh, I was on QVC selling it, that was fun. It was me over here and the diamond eek earrings over here. It was great, I loved it.

Aaron Dinin:

I think I actually kind of remember ads for those books. So is that when the title of Net-mom became a brand and a business?

Jean Armour Polly:

That’s how Net-mom happened. And once you got a book, it’s like having a big business card and people start asking you for peripheral things, because now you’ve got this book out there, that’s being promoted by your publisher. And so I worked a lot for private label stuff, I did for Disney and AOL. And I was a website editor for Ask Jeeves for a while for their kids’ stuff, Ask Jeeves for kids.

I was a product spokesperson for a couple of companies for their filtering software, which early on was not so great, but later got to be what people wanted. I did a lot of things. I worked for pretty much anybody in this space, any sort of telecom company, I probably did something for them.

Aaron Dinin:

And now, you eventually wound up back in the library space for the end of your career. So how did the Net-mom business come to an end?

Jean Armour Polly:

Google had come out. And this is all pre-Google, right? That’s why it was so important, and that’s why we sold so many copies because nobody wanted to sift through a 1,000,000 hits in AltaVista or Yahoo, or anything like that. But once Google got pretty good, then there really wasn’t a need for those books anymore. Although every now and again, I’d get a 25 cent royalty check. I’ve seen them for sale at the local Goodwill, older copies. But I was able to do a lot of stuff with Net-mom and I do have the registered trademark for Net-mom for web-based services, and International Class 42.

You can go ahead and trademark something yourself. I did it and I’ve kept it up. When I had a website component to it, which I did monetize with Google ads for a while, and every month I’d get some money from that, but right now, netmom.com is basically just a personal webpage where it’s basically a place holder and it tells you what I used to do, and I don’t really add to it anymore.

Aaron Dinin:

As it did to so many other thing, Google made Jean Armour Polly’s Net-mom work obsolete, but she clearly had a good run. First person to answer a library reference question online, first person to get an Indian nation online, person who made the phrase, “Surfing the internet,” part of the global zeitgeist. All of that is pretty cool, but if that weren’t enough, Jean Armour Polly is also the person who helped McDonald’s secure the mcdonalds.com domain name.

Jean Armour Polly:

A reporter for… I think it was Time, had called up McDonald’s and said, “Hey, you don’t own mcdonalds.com. And they said, “Oh, it’s okay. We own mcdonaldsinc.com,” or something like that. And he said, “Yeah. Well, somebody’s going to grab it.” And they said, “Yeah, it’s good.” So he grabbed it. You couldn’t do that now, but he grabbed it and he set up an email server that he was Ronald@mcdonalds.com. And McDonald’s didn’t like it very much, so they asked him for it back and he said, “I’ll give it to you back if you give a fast internet connection to a high school in Bedford Stuyvesant,” poor school district. And they said, “Okay.”

So of course, he knew me because I had evangelized him. So he contacted me and said, “Can you broker this?” So I talked to their lawyers and I talked to the school, and I talked to my bosses. And what happened was McDonald’s paid for an internet hookup to the school. The problem was that we just bring the line to the demarcation point at the building, but it turned out that the computer lab was actually on this second or third or fourth floor.

So then that stopped us there because McDonald’s had done what they said they were going to do. So then we ended up having to run the networking up to where they had the computers. But that did happen, but McDonald’s didn’t want to release the money until the domain name actually transferred to them. So I was sitting there talking to their lawyers and to the reporter and saying, “Okay, it’s transferred. And this is how you can see it, that it’s definitely transferred to you.” So that happened. That was kind of cool. I was like the Henry Kissinger between these two entities and that was kind of wild.

Aaron Dinin:

So the next time you’re ordering food from mcdonalds.com, remember you have Jean Armor Polly, Net-mom, to thank for it. More importantly, next time you see someone using a public computer terminal at a library somewhere, that ability for anyone to access the web, well, that’s thanks to Jean Armor Polly too. I hope you enjoyed hearing her story. And if you did, I hope you’ll take a moment to share it with someone who might enjoy it too. And While you’re at it, don’t forget to subscribe to Web Masters wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts, and do me a favor and leave a five-star review there too. I’d really appreciate it.

I’d like to thank Jean Armour Polly for taking the time to speak with me. You can read all about her work and career on her website, netmom.com. I also want to thank our audio engineer, Ryan Higgs for pulling together this episode, and a thanks to our sponsor Latona’s for supporting the podcast. Remember, if you’re interested in buying or selling an internet business, start by checking out latonas.com.

If you’ve got any thoughts or feedback about the episode, we’d love to hear them. You can reach us on Twitter. We’re @WebMastersPod. I’m on Twitter too @AaronDinin. That’s A-A-R-O-N-D-I-N-I-N. You can also check out all my articles about startups and entrepreneurship over on medium.com. Just search for my name and you’ll find them.

That’s all I got for you on this episode, thanks for tuning in. We’ll be back soon with another episode. For now though, it’s time for me to sign off.