Web Masters Episode #24: Joe Colopy

How do you compete in a huge market with tons of bigger and better-resourced competitors? Find out on this episode of Web Masters when Joe Colopy, founder of Bronto Software, shares the story of how he created and then dominated a completely new market segment, ultimately using the strategy to grow a SaaS company he sold for $200 million.


Image result for bronto logo

Joe Colopy:

When the early two thousands … The way people looked at email were two different things. One, people send email to each other personally but beyond that, people do it as media and spam, quite honestly. And so a lot of folks who would help small businesses inside of emails were small marketing design shops. They might create a simple product and they viewed it very much as a marketing direct mail exercise. And because of that, email marketing specifically had a very bad and justified name with spam and had a lot of people behind it that didn’t understand software. They understood direct marketing and that was very different than how I looked at it. I viewed it less about, “Hey, I’m trying to push out a message in the same way I might do a direct mail piece through the mail.”

I looked at it in terms of software and something you could automate and something that you could have communication with, something that was more similar to an online CRM, an online database. And because of that, when we started the business, we would get feedback from customers or anyone business press like, “Hey, on every corner, there’s a random company with a simple email newsletter product because they’re all web agencies. What makes you different?”

And we didn’t have a great answer to that initially but as we worked on it and we became very product focused and we had this different vision where email is not about media, email is more about an automated dialog and it’s about tracking, it’s about a database and all these other things, our product really started separating itself from the pack.

Aaron Dinin:

That product was called Bronto mail. It was the email automation product that served as the foundation for what ultimately became Bronto software, the world’s leading commerce marketing automation platform. And the person talking about it was Joe Colopy, Bronto’s founding CEO. Now, if you have no idea what commerce marketing automation is or how it’s any different than regular marketing automation, that’s actually the point. In fact, as we’re here creating a niche market segment and then dominating it was a big part of how Bronto became so successful. Are you ready to hear the story? Let’s get dialed in.

[INTRO]

Aaron Dinin:

Hi there and welcome to Web Masters, the podcast that explores internet history by talking to some of the web’s most impactful early innovators, entrepreneurs and business owners. I’m Aaron Dinin, your host and fellow explorer. I currently teach entrepreneurship at Duke University. Before that, I was building internet businesses. And before that, I was a web marketer. Those three things have me very excited about this episode’s guest because he’s an entrepreneur who built a very successful internet business about web marketing. It’s Joe Colopy, founder of Bronto software, as in brontosaurus, which is also great because brontosaurus was one of my favorite dinosaurs when I was a kid. I’m looking forward to sharing Joe’s story and the story of Bronto but before I can do that, I’m going to take a minute to tell you about another company I love, the company sponsoring this podcast.

Web Masters is being brought to you thanks to the generous support of our sponsor, Latonas. Latonas is a boutique mergers and acquisition broker that specializes in helping people buy and sell cashflow positive internet businesses. That means SAS platforms like Bronto software. It also means e-commerce stores, Amazon FBAs, content websites, domain portfolios and just about any other type of internet business. If you’re interested in running an online business but don’t want to start one from scratch, check out the listings of already profitable internet businesses over on the Latonas website. You might find the perfect one for you. Or if you’ve already got yourself a profitable internet business and you’ve been thinking about selling it, talk to the Latonas team. They’ve got a global network of buyers and they can help you sell your business for a great price. Learn more now at latonas.com. That’s L-A-T-O-N-A-S.com.

In this episode, we’re going to explore the world of marketing automation. Marketing automation is a niche within the broader marketing industry. And even if you’ve never personally managed a marketing automation platform, you’ve almost certainly been on the receiving end of one. For example, let’s say you bought a pair of jeans from your favorite clothing company’s website a few years ago. And as a result, every few days, you’ve been getting emails with coupons and discounts and promotions and whatnot from that same company, those emails are being sent based on a set of rules defined in a marketing automation platform.

Now, rules include things like, when was the last time we emailed this person? When was the last time this person was on our website? When was the last time this person bought something? And so on, bunch of things like that. In other words, marketing automation leverages programmatic logic to control marketing sequences. Or as I like to describe it, marketing automation is basically what happens when you take computer nerds like me and like this episode’s guest, Joe Colopy and put us in charge of marketing. We take what computers are really good at, which is the ability to repeat sequential processes over and over and over again and we apply that to the process of communicating with prospective customers. It probably won’t surprise you when I reveal that someone who built a company around computer automation, was interested in computers from a very early age.

Joe Colopy:

My tech story starts way back when in Akron, Ohio. I was born and raised there. And when I was in fifth grade, I started getting fascinated with computers. I’m a bit older, this was the early 80s. And I had an older half-brother that used to work for … Senior at Texas Instruments. And so he was able to for Christmas one year, give us our first home computer but my parents had a rule that basically says, I can’t play any games. Any game I wanted to play, I had to make. I got really into computer coding, basic and all these other languages when I was in middle school and got really, really good at it.

I also was able to get a modem. For those of you who remember War Games, that movie where you dial a phone number and then you put the phone on top of a modem and it communicates to singles, that was a very early way of communicating to essentially, the internet. And I was able to start a bulletin board system, called the Commodore Crusader, with a friend in middle school. This is all the early 80s, about 10 years before the world wide web came out. And so had some exposure even before American online came out to the world of the internet before it was really the internet and the world wide web as we know it.

Aaron Dinin:

You were a middle schooler, basically running an internet chat forum. Was that common for lots of preteens back in the 80s?

Joe Colopy:

That’s a good question. In the early 80s, there are definitely a handful of kids who deep dive on computers and use their cheap Atari or Commodore 64 or in my case, Texas Instruments 99/4A. There was a big push to the home computer that costs a few hundred dollars. And some of them, you could start getting modems. The problem though, is it was very limited and it was very expensive. If you remember back then, if you wanted to call long distance, it was extremely expensive to do so. In fact, a number of times I used to run up these huge telephone bills because I would be calling these bulletin bard systems the other part of the country and my parents would get really angry at me, until I realized I could actually do it from my middle school library.

I hacked the modem and then I could prank call people in Hawaii through the modem in middle school but I do think there were a number of older people, a lot of hobbyists that did it, came out of the [ham 00:08:16] radio space. They were aging engineers who would tinker with computers. I used to also buy and sell computers when I was a middle schooler. And often, these people that I was selling computers to were 40 or 50 year old men, quite honestly. I do think it skewed older engineering men at the time.

Aaron Dinin:

Okay. What you were doing was definitely unusual.

Joe Colopy:

Well, there’s so much there. I was logging online in the early 80s and the internet just didn’t come out of nowhere. It hung out in very obscure, rough corners for a while. It’s very fascinating to see what it looked like way back when. In fact, I went on an online date when I was in seventh grade. To give you a perspective of when that was, that would have been 1984. And to make it even funnier, I was communicating with my buddies, my middle school buddies. One of them was a girl and we decided, “Hey, let’s go see a movie.”

And we went to go see … She was in ninth grade and I was a very small seventh grader. And she was a very tall ninth grader. Sight unseen, we went to go see the first version of Red Dawn, which was one of actually the first PG13 movies. It’s basically where the Russians and the Cubans invade the US and then these youth in Michigan, wolverines, fight them back. Anyways, it was a good teen movie. I had my mom drop me off at the mall. I didn’t explain why. We said hello within the first five seconds in the movie. And then didn’t say anything else. And I think that was it. It was a very awkward middle school date but we met entirely online. And so there you go. I’m an innovator in the online dating community, I guess.

Aaron Dinin:

I guess. Sounds like that’s a contribution to the history of the internet worth being proud of.

Joe Colopy:

Going on an online date in seventh grade with an actual female, was quite an accomplishment. I am sure I was praised and lauded among my peers. The top dog in the seventh grade geeky world.

Aaron Dinin:

I’d say scoring an online date in the 1980s as a seventh grader, especially with a ninth grader, was a pretty big accomplishment. And to be fair, it would remain Joe’s biggest online accomplishment for quite some time. That’s because after majoring in computer science at Harvard, Joe made a decision that took him just about as far away from the internet as possible.

For college, when I went to college, I actually studied computer science and had a whole computer science program right before the web came out in essentially, ’92, ’93 timeframe. Right when the web started coming out, I decided to join the Peace Corps right after college. And I was a teacher at a polytechnic, which was like a high school in these group of islands called the Seychelle Islands off of east Africa.

Aaron Dinin:

The Seychelle Islands, officially the Republic of Seychelle, is an archipelago with around 100,000 people in the middle of the Indian ocean, about a thousand miles off the east coast of Africa. Definitely not the kind of place that would have had early internet access.

Joe Colopy:

I taught 16, 17, 18 year olds technology at the same time the internet and the web was coming out in a big way but I was in a far-flung country on the other side of the world, such that I could only read about it in our weekly Newsweeks we would get, they’d have a cyber page. It was very frustrating as a tech guy, to completely miss the big hurrah when it all came out.

Aaron Dinin:

Lucky for Joe, the big hurrah as he called it, was only just beginning. He made it back to the United States a couple of years later in plenty of time to join in on the fun of the late 90s dot.com boom. And rather than continuing his coding, he actually decided to learn more about business by pursuing an MBA.

Joe Colopy:

It was a really neat time to begin an MBA because if you’re into trading stocks and you knew anything about technology, you could do really well. We all thought we were really smart because all stocks were going up, particularly in the ’97, ’98, ’99. We’re like, “I’m brilliant.”

… but everything’s easy when everything’s going up. And so actually, I did a short summer internship at Dell computer in Austin. And then when I graduated, I really wanted to work for something more startup-y. I found this little company that looked really exciting that I thought was doing some innovative things, in my second year of business school. This would have been the ’98, ’99 timeframe. And did everything in my power to network my way in. At the time, they were very technical and they were very averse to MBAs but I was able to get into this company as an intern and then eventually as a full-time employee. And so I’m sure I was the lowest paid MBA out of my class. And that company was Red Hat. At the time, it was less than a hundred employees and Red Hat became the leader in Linux and Open-source.

Aaron Dinin:

What was it like to be at Red Hat in the early days of the company and during the dot.com Bubble?

Joe Colopy:

My time there … Soon after I started, a few months they decided to go public as a relatively small company and this was in August ’99 and it was really crazy. And then I stayed for the following about year and a half or so. And it was just bonkers, in terms of what that stock price did. It went crazy up and then the dot.com bust and went crazy down. It was just a unreal time to be in tech. It’s like nothing that we’ve ever seen since then, despite all the [inaudible 00:13:54], we’ve seen some of these companies even recently, it’s nothing compared to what was going on then, where it was just pure insanity in terms of how people look to the web. Obviously, Red Hat wasn’t a dot.com company but they powered all the servers behind it. We were very much in the middle of internet.

I remember when I was there, this was in early ’99, Red Hat was very much in the inside track with what was going on. They’re like, “Hey, we’re starting to use this company to figure things online. Don’t use Alta Vista or Yahoo or some of these old search engines. There’s this little company called Google that’s cool. Try it out.”

And it was definitely cool within the geeky technical set. And so we started using Google pretty early on as well.

Aaron Dinin:

And out of curiosity, what made you want to join a small techie company like Red Hat, rather than a big established company, like most other people from MBA programs?

Joe Colopy:

The reason I was so attracted to Red Hat because it was before it was really mainstream, is it looked really rough. It looked very technical and obscure and arcane, right. And it would definitely push away most folks as like, “This is just too weird and odd and they’re selling free software and it’s this Linux thing, which looks really complicated.”

… but that is exactly how the internet looked to me in college. When I was a freshman in college at Harvard at the time and we would get free software from Stanford and we’d [inaudible 00:15:18] that over there and everything was command line. And even later on in sophomore or junior year, when we used to get email, we used to use Unix commands, Pine to get our email. And it was all weird. It was all definitely arcane and definitely not user friendly but you could see that the fundamentals behind it were extremely powerful. And so the internet [inaudible 00:15:38] able to be commercialized was the gateway for a lot of the web in ’92, ’93. And I had graduated school and that started becoming very real. It added graphics. It got easy to use. All that happened when I was away in the Peace Corps. Well, I saw that same quirky roughness in Red Hat.

Obviously, that’s a long circular way of saying that these breakout successes, these things that just seem to really move the needle in terms of how technology is used and really change the world, they’re often not very pretty beforehand. They’re kind of obscure or they’re very popular in a very arcane niche group but you have to be able to see the diamond in the rough to really see where things are going and see things for what they really are and strip away all the rough edges. And I think that was true right before the web started really branching out in the ’93, ’94, ’95 timeframe, which of course is a zillion years ago. And I think that was true with Linux and Open-source, how it started looking before it became a really big deal as well.

Aaron Dinin:

We can basically take what Joe is saying here about Red Hat and apply it to email marketing as well, which is what Joe moves to after working at red hat for a couple of years. Of course, email wasn’t new in 2002 when Joe launched Bronto. It’s similar to how the internet wasn’t new in the late 90s, when the first big wave of dot.com companies started appearing. Instead, the 90s dot.com boom was a by-product of the internet becoming more user-friendly, thanks in large part to the creation of the worldwide web and visual web browsers. Companies like Bronto were doing the same thing for email marketing. Without marketing automation software, sending sequenced emails to consumers was a huge technological hassle. It required coders and software engineers, which were things most marketing teams just didn’t have but then companies like Bronto came along and helped turn email into a more buyable tool by making the automation more accessible to non engineers. Though to be fair, Joe didn’t necessarily realize that’s what he was doing when he first got started.

Joe Colopy:

I first started a work from home … This is 2000, 2001 timeframe. And I was coming out with a product called [Database App 00:17:53]. And the idea was, you could store all your information online and then you would have different modules that would let you pull information out through reports and put the information in through forms. And as I worked through it, it was really an exercise to learn how the web really works. Even though I had technical background from back in the day, I really had to learn how to develop on the web. I also had an MBA, so it was odd and weird to feel like, “I’m a business person but yet, I’m here coding.”

Joe Colopy:

… but I was able to figure out how to create a simple web application called Database App that no one liked and no one used and no one expressed any interest. It’s like creating that third grade pottery piece that no one likes, that no one’s requested or wanted but I was able to learn a lot about the technology.

Aaron Dinin:

How’d you go from Database App that nobody wanted to Bronto, which tons of people wanted?

Joe Colopy:

One of the pieces about that. I thought, “This is too broad. I need to take one element of it.”

And the one element I took, is I had a module there called email merge. If you remember Publishers Clearing House, they would kick off all these letters and they’d personalize the names but everyone gets the same letter. And then potentially win some prize, it was like that. You could use the online database to automatically kick out emails that could be personalized. I decided to run with that. I chopped off everything else. I focused just on the email piece and I created a very simple email newsletter product. Only took me a few weeks, called Brontomail.com. And this is the beginning of 2002. And when I did that, it really was focused on one specific use case. I suddenly had some friends, they’re just like, “Oh, I could use that. That’s helpful. I think it’s helpful to be able to send emails out, not through outlook.”

Or through whatever email client I’m using. That was really the beginning. It was a modest beginning. It wasn’t like I had this great idea and investors and customers flocked to me. It was very, very iterative but I was able to have a basic web application that was very simple to use and I was able to get some local customers. Later that spring, I was able to pick up a co-founder, someone I knew who had also come from Red Hat, named Chaz Felix and very incrementally, we were able to bootstrap what we later learned was a very simple email newsletter product.

Aaron Dinin:

And what attracted you to email marketing? Was it something you were passionate about prior to starting Bronto?

Joe Colopy:

I like using email because it could be automated. You could create logic around it and say, “If this person does this, kick off email reminding them to do that.”

And that was very intriguing. I didn’t specifically go into email marketing because I knew anything about email or I knew anything about media. I went into it because it was a way of extending automation, if that makes sense. And be done through computers. There’s obviously a lot with the Bronto mail story but in a very bootstrap way, Chaz and I started selling these subscriptions and we looked at early pioneers in the web application space, like salesforce.com and NetSuite and there were a few others but not many, to develop pricing. And we just started doing what we thought made sense. And what we started doing to make sense, actually started into becoming a best practice in how to run software as a service and web application companies, not because we did it and then everyone followed. It’s because when you’re dealing with a certain set of circumstances, if you’ve got smart, capable people, people often come to the same conclusions.

Aaron Dinin:

How’d you grow the business? Bronto certainly wasn’t the only company selling an email newsletter product at the time. How’d you differentiate yourself?

Joe Colopy:

We grew this email newsletter product year after year after year we increased revenues. We never took any outside investment. and we got to a few million dollars in recurring revenue, maybe $5 million in recurring revenue, just by gritting it out, hiring a very junior team. And at the time, we were email newsletter for all types of businesses. And when I looked at the market, I said, “We’re going to top out in terms of revenue. We’re just going to be a few million dollar revenue. The market is too competitive. The way it really needs to go, is we need to focus on doing a tech stack. We need to look at it less about email and more about trying to solve one particular verticals problems.”

At the time, there were vertical stacks coming out for B2B. B2B would be companies who are selling other businesses. I’ve heard of companies called Eloqua and Marketo and later on Pardot, they were very geared for regular businesses to use email and other things to do a better job of selling to other businesses but what we saw in email marketing, there was a whole segment that was being neglected and that was businesses that sold to consumers. And we would call them online retailers. And increasingly, retailers were adding a online piece but they didn’t really have a great tool to be really smart with how they communicate with customers. They would have people that would come to their website through the search engines and buy something but they didn’t have a really great way to be smart about how to get that one-time customer to be a lifetime buyer. And so we started focusing the company just to be around service e-commerce and commerce companies and with time, we labeled ourselves not as an email marketing company but as a commerce marketing automation company.

Aaron Dinin:

This to focus on a specific vertical was really the key to Bronto’s success, so I want to be sure we highlight it. Lots of entrepreneurs think the best way to grow a company is to target as large a market as possible. And at first glance, that strategy seems to make sense. A bigger market means more potential customers, which in turn should mean the company has more potential to grow, right. However, that’s almost never the best approach to building companies because targeting large markets introduces challenges that smaller companies will struggle to manage. For example, bigger markets usually have bigger and better resourced competitors. Also, selling to larger markets means needing larger sales teams, more marketing collateral, a stronger brand and so on. In contrast, being a specialized company that targets a niche market, allows younger companies to more easily establish a secure foothold and they get to become the market leader, which is exactly what Joe and Bronto did.

Joe Colopy:

A classic case of marketing and differentiation that you might pull out of the MBA class of be number one in your own category, create your own category and be number one. And if you don’t have more money than everyone else, then maybe just be smarter and first, before everyone else. And so we did that, let’s say in the 2008 timeframe and we really started focusing just on selling to online retailers. And even though we attempted the size of some of our competitors, we were able to establish a leadership position in online retailing and actually had more online retailers as Bronto customers than anyone else and we were able to execute on that. And then we were able to grow the team from 50 people to a few hundred people. And obviously, taking it off the country roads onto the highway, selling the company in the spring of 2015 to NetSuite, one of the early pioneers in the software as a service space because we were so focused on e-commerce and we really understood where the market was going.

Aaron Dinin:

You see, when Joe focused his company on being the best marketing automation software for primarily commercial retailers, which back in 2008 was an underserved niche within the larger marketing automation industry, he did not limit Bronto’s growth potential, he catalyzed it, ultimately selling to NetSuite in 2015 for $200 million. Not bad, right. Especially for a company that never took outside investment. However, before you start searching for that perfect underserved niche market that’s going to bring you the same entrepreneurial success as Joe, I want to be clear about a few things. First of all, it’s not like Joe went from idea to $200 million exit in a weekend. Let’s take a closer look at Joe’s timeline.

Joe Colopy:

It’s worth noting that I left Red Hat in the summer of 2000. Bronto didn’t get incorporated until May, 2002. I definitely had a long period in there, predecessor Bronto mail, creating a product/futzing around at home/taking my sweet old time. And the mistake there, was I was too focused on building a product and I was too scared to actually focus on the customer and show it to customers. It’s just it was too fun to build but it’s not about the product. It’s about a customer finding utility on the product. And I didn’t really do a good job of speaking to customers early on. I was too enamored and too focused on just doing the product, versus realizing I’m actually building something for someone. And so that’s why my first product no one wanted, there was no real market for it because I didn’t focus on that. And it wasn’t until I got really desperate and had a baby on the way and no money that was I like, “Crap. I really got to figure this out. I really got to figure it out.”

Joe Colopy:

And then miraculously, it slowly came together.

Aaron Dinin:

Okay. We’ve got almost two full years of trying to get a product launched that people might actually want to buy. Two years is a long time to be struggling with a product nobody wanted, not generating any income and also having a new baby. Then Joe finally hits on a product people actually like in may of 2002, which is when he launches Bronto mail but he told us he didn’t move to his commerce focused strategy until 2008. That’s six years. It took me about the same amount of time to get my doctorate and during the entire experience, I thought the process was never going to end. Now, imagine Joe spending six long years of slow and difficult growth, as he tried to learn and understand his market opportunity.

Joe Colopy:

The early days of Bronto mail, actually before Google Adwords, you could do banner advertising, a few other things but we had no money, right. I had left my job. I was living with my wife and we had a new baby and was just on her salary, which was not enough. It really came down to what we could do for cheap or no money. And we did some very old school things. We basically just called businesses. We did barter deals with a few local publications and we just hustled and called local businesses. And it was really hard.

Getting your first customer is really, really hard. Getting your first-time customers is really, really hard but once you have a few, then it gets easier. The first customers are all about hustle. Early on, it was just smiling and dialing. Chaz, my co-founder and I, we would just really call local marketing people at different businesses and you get a lot of no’s and ever once in a while you get a yes. And then once you get a yes, then you keep on trying to get more customers like them, “Hey, Duke University’s using it. Hey UNC, do you want to be like Duke?”

You play that game. And so it’s a timeless tactic. Even though we’re dealing with new fangled technologies, the act of selling, it’s probably around for a thousand years. It’s the same strategy.

Aaron Dinin:

Then, Joe and his team spend another four or five years creating the commerce marketing automation vertical and establishing themselves as the market leader. That required hosting events like their annual user conference, growing their sales team and setting up offices in Europe and Australia. Eventually, after more than a decade and a lot of hard work becoming the leader of the commerce marketing automation vertical, Bronto was finally able to successfully expand into other markets. What’s my point here? Well, I’ll let Joe explain it.

Joe Colopy:

I guess the point is, as we grew Bronto mail, our budget changed but more importantly, our target customer changed. Not only in terms of vertical but also in terms of size. When we started, our average customer would pay us two, $3,000 a year. When we left, our average customer would pay us 30 or $50,000 a year. And at the beginning, we were only able to create a product good enough that a small business would pay for. Also, the market was just less mature. Only small businesses that are nimble and had less contingencies could do something. When we finished and sold the business, it was extremely mainstream. Our product was very sophisticated. We were very well known in the market. We could operate on a much larger scale, much larger volume, so we could have multi-million dollar customers. We could pick up 30, $50,000 customers all day long without a problem. Early on, that thing was duct taped together. We wouldn’t be able to handle it.

Aaron Dinin:

That’s how companies grow. Start small, establish a beachhead, figure out what the market wants, build your brand. And eventually, over time, a lot of time, you’ll hopefully evolve into the business you dream of becoming. And that’s why focusing yourself on a niche market like Bronto did, is usually a better strategy than entering a huge crowded ecosystem. Niche markets are where you’ve got the best chance of successfully navigating the long, hard slog toward establishing yourself as a real company, serving a real customer need. In other words, be the best in your niche and you might survive long enough to become a meaningful player in a bigger market but if you try to be the best in a big market on day one, you’re basically guaranteeing failure. That’s the lesson of Bronto software and that’s the strategy Joe Colopy executed so well. Oh and by the way, another important lesson from Joe and Bronto, is that just because building a company is a long, hard, exhausting journey, it doesn’t mean you can’t have any fun along the way.

Joe Colopy:

There were a lot of silly antics during the course of Bronto. I think one of the advantages we had, is because we had no outside investors, we can run it like a little benevolent dictatorship. And we’d like to think it was a good thing but every year … I had this game in college, we used to play an assassin where everyone would get someone else’s name and their goal was to hunt them down with a Nerf gun, essentially. And we brought that into a corporate environment when we were 10, 15 people, which is all fun and good and fun but when you bring that into a corporate environment and then you’re 2 to 300 people, it gets to be completely crazy. We had definitely a lot of fun antics through doing things like that. We had the beer Olympics, there’s pictures of me doing a keg stand upside down, probably not the most professional of things but there was a steady stream of antics and weirdness at Bronto that were quite fun.

Aaron Dinin:

I imagine watching your CEO do a keg stand, is indeed a lot of fun. And speaking of fun, I hope you had at least a little fun learning about Joe Colopy and the story of Bronto software. If you did, make sure you’re subscribed to Web Masters on your podcasting app of choice so you’re sure to get the next episode as soon as it’s available. And while you’re there, maybe leave a nice review and share a link for the episode with 1 or 2 or 500 of your closest friends.

I want to thank Joe Colopy for taking the time to talk about his entrepreneurial journey. You can see what he’s up to now by following him on Twitter. He’s @colopy. This podcast is on Twitter too. We are @WebMastersPod and I’m on Twitter @AaronDinin. That’s A-A-R-O-N D-I-N-I-N. I also write lots of articles about entrepreneurship, startups in the internet businesses over on medium.com. Just search for my name and you’ll find my entire archive that’s well over a thousand pages worth of content at this point. I’m just saying, lots of good stuff there. I think you’ll like it. A quick shout out to our sound engineer, Ryan Higgs for all his work helping edit this and all of our other episodes. Also, a thanks to Latonas, our wonderfully supportive sponsor. Remember, if you’re interested in buying or selling in internet business, latonas.com is the place to get started. And finally, a thanks to all of you for listening. I hope you join me again for another episode in just a few days but for now, I’m sorry to say, it’s time for me to sign off.