Web Masters Episode #17: Bill Martin

You definitely remember the “Dot-Com Bubble.” But did you know a 19-year-old college dropout played a big part in making it happen? This episode of Web Masters explains how. It features Bill Martin, founder of RagingBull.com, one of the earliest and most influential online communities for discussing stocks.



RagingBull.com - Wikipedia

Bill Martin:

We were these early adopters of technology and internet. I figured everyone knew about the internet. So my aha moment actually was in the summer of 1997. Two or three years later, I’d been online for some time. I got an internship at Goldman Sachs in New York, and here I was Grand Central for global finance and no one was online. It was still very old school, and that really was the moment for me. There’s a business opportunity here. I go back and I have a couple good buddies and I’m like, “I think there’s something here with this internet thing. We should start a business.”

When we went back to college, it was easy to get online, but the following summer when we went full time on the business, it was all on dial up and I remember how hard it was and how expensive it was. I think our first bill was like $2000 because we were in a commercial zone. It was insane. I mean, that bill almost put us out of business before we even got going.

Aaron Dinin:

That was Bill Martin and as you just heard, $2000 for dial up internet access nearly sunk his business before it really got launched. That business was RagingBull.com. One of the first online communities for stock traders and as you’re about to hear, possibly a key contributor to the famous bursting of the dot-com bubble. Are you ready to hear the story? Let’s get dialed in.

[INTRO]

Aaron Dinin:

We’re back with another episode of Webmasters. The podcast where we talk with the people who helped build the internet and world wide web into the global behemoth that we all know, love and simultaneously loathe. I’m Aaron Dinin your host. I’m a serial tech entrepreneur. I teach innovation and entrepreneurship at Duke University and for whatever reason, I’m fascinated by online businesses. So I like to learn more about them and I’m assuming you do too, otherwise you wouldn’t be listening or you’re my mom. Hi mom. Anyway, for the rest of you, you’re here and you like online businesses. So I want to take a moment to tell you about my sponsor because well, they specialize in helping online businesses.

This podcast was made possible thanks to generous support from Latona’s. Latona’s is a boutique mergers and acquisitions broker that specializes in helping people buy and sell profitable internet businesses. Those are the kinds of businesses we often talk about here on Webmasters. Content websites, online communities, eCommerce stores, Amazon FBAs, SaaS apps, domain portfolios and just about any other kind of online work from anywhere business you can imagine. If you’re currently running one of those types of companies and thinking about selling it, reach out to the team at Latona’s and they can tell you about the process and probably help you get the best price possible because that’s what they do. Or if you’re interested in buying already profitable internet business, head over to the Latona’s website where you can search all their listings for businesses you can buy right now. That’s Latona’s.com. L-A-T-O-N-A-S.com.

So, one of the reasons I’m so fascinated by internet businesses is because of the ways in which digital technologies have come into traditional markets and basically just flipped them on their heads. One market where that’s certainly happened is well, the stock market. As Bill Martin, our guest for this episode explains, the way retail investors researched and traded stocks before the digital age was very different.

Bill Martin:

My interest in the market predated the web. I bought my first stock when I was 10 years old, which was in 1987, actually right after the crash. I had a grandfather who was an investor and introduced me to the markets and was always entrepreneurial as a child. I was starting businesses and just immediately was struck by the market and being able to look up prices every single day and intellectual curiosity learning about businesses. Back in those days to get information, I literally would have to drive half an hour to the public library to look at a value line, which was this book that would come out every week and you could research stocks. It had an amazing amount of data, but it was old. In a lot of cases, it was months old.

Aaron Dinin:

I like the way Bill is focused on the speed at which digital technologies have changed how the world operates. As I’ve discussed plenty of times on this podcast, and I’ll surely talk about it again, lots of technologies have completely transformed the world, but I’m not sure any of them have done it so quickly. That of course is because of the incredible speeds at which digital technologies allow people to exchange information. This for Bill is what was so appealing about the early web.

Bill Martin:

I had some friends who were techies, ended up hiring actually a couple of them later on to help build Raging Bull and do some of the initial coding, but they were always running projects early on connecting computers across town on 2400 baud and making games work. Our high school actually rolled out email fairly early on. I remember signing up for American Online, early days. I remember Steve Case would send out a letter every time it hit 50 or 100,000 users. I remember reading his letters. So for me, that was kind of the early exposure. Again, could just immediately see that this was a much better way to get information, to share information and as someone who was really interested in the stock markets, just ate it up.

Aaron Dinin:

And back then, what kind of things were you doing online to get information about stocks and the market in general?

Bill Martin:

I was a sophomore or junior in high school when I learned about message boards, online forums and various news sources online. Early on found a website called Silicon Investor, which was an early message board website Motley Fool was available early on and there were early communities of investors coming together and sharing information. Yeah, much like financial Twitter of today, but coming together and sharing information.

Aaron Dinin:

Silicon Investor and Motley Fool were basically known as not only some of the first web based communities about investing, but in general, some of the first web based communities period. And to be clear, that shouldn’t really surprise us. If we want to think back in time a bit and try to imagine who would’ve been the earliest adopters of new web technologies outside of academia, it would have mostly been people with enough money to afford personal computers and relatively expensive dial up internet. Not surprisingly, that demographic would surely overlap to some extent with the people interested in stocks, in investing. That’s exactly the kind of environment Bill grew up in.

Bill Martin:

My grandfather was a self made man. Didn’t finish college and made his fortune in the markets. He ran his own business and my father had his own business while I grew up. And then being at the University of Virginia was a fantastic place to be as well. Not only were there some early internet guys that came out of there, most notably the CNET guys, Halsey Minor, they ended up actually investing in Raging Bull later, but there was also just a lot of Wall Street guys.

Aaron Dinin:

That background of being steeped in the world of the stock market from an early age, combined with Bill’s early experiences exploring web based investment communities all came together in the “aha moment” you heard about at the top of the episode.

Bill Martin:

I got an internship at Goldman Sachs in New York and here I was, Grand Central for global finance and no one was online. It was still very old school and that really was the moment for me like there’s a business opportunity here.

Aaron Dinin:

So you just… what, started Raging Bull because it seemed like a good idea?

Bill Martin:

Yeah. I think being young and a little naïve helps. Now I’m a grizzled veteran. I ran a long/short hedge fund and shorted stocks for 15 years. I know all the pitfalls. I know all the things that can go wrong. The idea that we could pool $20,000 of capital and hire a couple of our buddies to code a website and drop out of college and build a business, any rational person that’s a logical decision.

Aaron Dinin:

Yeah, being naïve is definitely helpful. I feel like lots of people describe entrepreneurs as risk tolerant, but I think it’s more like risk ignorant.

Bill Martin:

Well when you’re young and you don’t have the burdens of mortgage and children and you have a little bit of naïve, so you can take risks and a lot of it’s just being in the game. That certainly was the case for Raging Bull and it’s been the case for my other businesses, which I’ve been fortunate to have some success around. You just got to be in the game and good things happen.

Aaron Dinin:

Okay, that’s fair. So let’s talk about it, how’d you get into the game? How’d you decide to build what you ultimately built?

Bill Martin:

For some reason, the message board piece just always grabbed me and my two co-founders. The social element of bringing people together, kind of that network effect, plus just distributed content. The idea that you could have these experts, and later on, a number of them became very famous and had huge followings, right? They were not people that were hired by Business Week Magazine or were on CNBC. These were just guys who were smart guys and they would go on message boards and share their knowledge. Just thought that was really powerful and spent a lot of time on some of the early Silicon Investor, Motley Fool sites and I just thought the products could be innovated around and could be done better. For all the upside of a social community, there’s also a lot of noise, a lot of riff raff, there’s a lot of trolls. There’s a lot of issues that need to be solved there too and that’s where we really focused our innovation.

Aaron Dinin:

And what was a successful example of that kind of innovation?

Bill Martin:

We created an ignore button. So you could literally mute someone in the community that you don’t want to listen to. Sounds simple today, although Twitter still struggles with that, right? That was a big part of it and the other part of it was just how do we bring all this data and all this information online? So we were one of the very first online sites to introduce real time stock quotes. Which today, when you can trade for free online doesn’t sound like a big deal. Back then, how do you get the data from the exchanges? The exchanges were set up to sell real time data at a penny a quote to institutional investors. We literally were delivering millions of quotes a day, right? So the business model needed to be reinvented and we needed to figure all these things out technically and financially.

Aaron Dinin:

That seems like a huge challenge. How’d you solve it? How’d you get real time stock feeds? I mean, I’d say that’s a major contribution to the web.

Bill Martin:

You know, it was all the different data feeds. It was business development, it was technology. There was no such thing as an API back then, right? So you had to set up custom connections and we ended up negotiating a deal that made us… had to be one of the biggest market data consumers that the exchanges had. Where you’re able to work out some caps and I wouldn’t say it was a viable long term business model, but it was at least a viable loss leader in the short term, because even adding real time quotes, Yahoo Finance didn’t have real time quotes, that was a big edge. And then we layered in charts and news and all the other stuff, which is kind of standard commodities but back then, bringing that together in one place, while also having the community component was a real differentiator and it allowed us to grow leaps and bounds.

Aaron Dinin:

And they definitely grew fast, but of course, it didn’t start that way. Bill and his co-founders launched the site during their sophomore year in college when he was just 19 years old. And at first, it wasn’t quite obvious to bill that he created something that would go on to become a successful internet company. So even as he built Raging Bull, he was still looking for internships.

Bill Martin:

We actually have Jim Cramer to thank for Raging Bull in kind of an ironic way. He, of course has become very famous with his CNBC show and what have you. Back in the mid 90s, he was running a hedge fund and had launched, at the time, thestreet.com, which was an early powerful innovation in financial media. But he was still running his hedge fund. After my summer at Goldman, my mentor at Goldman had said to me, “Next summer, you should go work at a hedge fund.” He was kind enough to write a few letters of introductions to some folks for me. One of them was Jim Cramer. So I sent a letter to Jim saying, “You got to interview this Bill Martin guy. I think he should spend the summer at your hedge fund.” And I called Jim and I say, “Can I have a interview?” And he’s like, “Call me at 6:00 in the morning on Friday.” That’s his response.

I’m a college kid so all right, I think I may have just stayed up until 6:00 in the morning, but I call him up. We start talking and I love the market, I really want to work at a hedge fund, learn about hedge fund. He asked me where I went to school and I said the University of Virginia and he said, “Well, I only hire kids from Ivy Leagues, sorry.” And he hung up the phone on me. So that was the birth of Raging Bull. If he would have given me a job that summer, I may have gone and interned for him and maybe worked for thestreet.com. But instead, we kind of doubled down on Raging Bull and actually created a little bit of a chip on our shoulder too on some level.

Aaron Dinin:

That doubling down on Raging Bull came in the form of Bill and his co-founders cobbling together $20,000 to work on the project during the summer after their sophomore year of college. They intended to return to school at the end of the summer, but the popularity of the site kept growing, and more and more people were noticing.

Bill Martin:

We did have some early offers. A firm called Multex, which was an investment research aggregate offered us a couple million bucks, and the backer of theglobe.com, which was an early high flyer, they had expressed some interest. It would have been a tremendous amount of money, but it just never really peaked our interest per se. It wasn’t enough money to be like, “This is it.” Right? We’re kind of young guys, we needed to do something, right? So we just kind of kept our heads down. Wetherall came along and it clicked.

Aaron Dinin:

Wetherell here is referring to Dave Wetherall. CEO of early internet conglomerate/holding company/VC firm CMGI. They were major investors in companies like Lycos, GeoCities and AltaVista and Dave famously discovered Raging Bull as he was surfing the web while on vacation.

Bill Martin:

Dave just… yeah, he was just a passionate internet user. He would spend a lot of time online. It wasn’t about business plans for him. He would engage and I think that’s why he had a lot of success with sites like GeoCities. He just kind of got it early on. Where a lot of guys were thinking about them as traditional businesses, right? Raging Bull, I think he was following CMGI stock. He may have had his own name actually on one of the message boards, which he probably shouldn’t have, but he was online following his stock and one thing led to another and he discovered Raging Bull on a vacation. And had one of his VCs reach out to us and requested a business plan, which we didn’t have a business plan, right? But we pulled an all nighter, we had a business plan the next day and I got invited to fly out to see him in Andover, which I almost missed the flight. There was bad weather in New Jersey. Went up and we spent a few hours together and just kind of hit it off. It was a pretty easy decision.

Aaron Dinin:

I bet it was. What was the offer and what was it like once you started working with Dave and CMGI?

Bill Martin:

You know, he came in, made a meaningful investment in us. Several million dollars. We ended up moving up to Andover, Massachusetts, which is where they were based and he gave us a lot of the infrastructure. We were a young group of guys. I wasn’t even 21 years old when we did that financing. Being around Wetherell was amazing. He really was one of the early geniuses who saw everything. He had a college marketing business in the early 90s that he ended up building. He saw the potential of the internet and ended up making early investments in Lycos and later GeoCities and a number of other firms. But just kind of saw the network effect of the internet, saw the opportunities way before everyone else and I was fortunate as a young entrepreneur, he kind of took me under his wing.

Bill Martin:

So I got to spend a lot of time with him and we were a couple floors away, so I would see him regularly and talk about just an amazing ride for a couple of years. When he funded us in the fall of 98, CMGI’s market cap was $500 million, which was a lot of money. But in March of 2000, it hit $60 billion and he was on the cover of Business Week and yeah, he’s one of the most famous guys in the country, right? So just being there for that arc was pretty awesome too.

Aaron Dinin:

And why do you think he was so passionate about Raging Bull? What was the business he was seeing? Because at least when he made his initial investment, you wouldn’t have been making much money, right?

Bill Martin:

It’s all about eye ball. The classic term of the late 90s and Dave got the eyeball argument. A lot of his early investments was in ad technology and looking at cookies and targeting, and he had a strong view that if you aggregated these large audiences, your ability to target and create ad based models was strong. So we did that with a message board for a lot of early challenges. You generate a lot of engagement, a lot of time onsite, a lot of impressions. But back then, people were judging the success of advertising based on click throughs, and you get terrible click throughs. So one of our early innovations, which sounds crazy today is called innovation, but I think we were one of the very first sites to introduce text based link ads.

We would put at the bottom of our message board and made an interface where people could upload those easily. We did some stuff like that later on. We were in the midst of the early stages of the internet bubble in 99 and 2000, things went really crazy. We just had all the online investors. So the business went from zero in revenues to $10 million in revenues in like an 18 month period, and that was E-Trade and Day Tech and Discover and all these guys wanting these online investors and very affluent customers. And doing effectively legion for them, and actually built a pretty nice business, but over a long term, not a sustainable one, but it was pretty good at the time.

Aaron Dinin:

Zero to $10 million in revenue in 18 months? That’s huge. So you must have had tons of user growth, but it’s not just any user growth, right? It’s stock market people. So probably lots of pump and dumps and spamming and things like that. I mean, you created an ignore button for a reason, right? How were you dealing with all that malicious traffic?

Bill Martin:

It was hard. I mean, you see today, Facebook and Twitter dealing with these issues in a lot of different ways, right? In some cases, misinformation where people are posting fake press releases and you get a subpoena from the FCC. I still remember the first time I got subpoenaed for the FCC for user data. So there are an assortment of issues that we needed to navigate, we had a team, but we had to be careful that we couldn’t monitor and edit every post, right? I mean, it was a free flowing community and we were growing lightning fast, and technology was really hard. Writing the software was hard, it was all from scratch. We also had to deal with the scalability and the hardware side.

You didn’t have the ability to outsource to a cloud provider. We had space, data center and we were growing. In some cases, we were growing 10% a week and we weren’t network ops guys, right? So trying to… not only the amount of capital to buy some hardware and all these expensive computers and trying to ramp them, but just try to stay ahead of your growth and deal with the inevitable bugs and everything else. There were a lot of growing pains and that was one of the biggest challenges for our business, and I think all the businesses at the time.

Aaron Dinin:

And you weren’t the coder, right? You were what, CEO?

Bill Martin:

Yeah, I was the CEO. There were three of us co-founders. My partner Rusty really managed and ran the community, and did just a brilliant job at that and was just amazing guy on user interface. We actually still work together today and Greg was a little bit more operational focused. So I was CEO for the early days. Once we accepted the venture round, I was CEO for some time and then we ended up hiring a real CEO. We hired a guy, Steve Killeen, who came out of Fidelity Investments. He ran their online brokerage business, so we had some gray hair. In his case, red hair I guess, but great guy. Talk about just a juxtaposition of worlds. I mean, we were 15 or 20 literally guys in a bullpen. I mean, it was like a dirty frat house. Pizza boxes and crazy work hours and schedules, and here comes in this guy with suit and tie… but he assimilated great and we got along great.

Aaron Dinin:

So did you put on the suit? Or did he take off the tie?

Bill Martin:

I did not put on the suit.

Aaron Dinin:

Fair enough. I’ll let that one slide. But I do have to ask this, which is if you’re running one of the biggest online investing communities in 98, 99, 2000 and of course with hindsight, we know the dot-com boom is coming. So are you seeing anything in that community that would have foretold the big boom? Because it seems like there would have been some sort of overlap.

Bill Martin:

I think when you look at the late 90s, I mean, there were a lot of things driving that bubble. There was real bonafide technology and excitement around that. There were different monetary policy in place and what have you, but I do think one of the underbellies of sites like Raging Bull were that we fed that. Because at the time, greedy investors, right? Later on, they became fearful investors, but at the time, they were greedy passion investors. They come together and share ideas and pump up ideas and do a lot of things, and stocks had moved. I remember stocks would go up 20X, right? It would get popular on a board and people would post it. So not going to take responsibility for the internet bubble, but I definitely think we fed it.

Aaron Dinin:

Yeah. You’re kind of at ground zero for all this stuff. You’re running a community that’s fostering all the excitement for the tech stocks. And at the same time, you’re also one of the young 20 something tech entrepreneurs everyone’s getting excited about. What was that like?

Bill Martin:

It was pretty cool. We lived in Boston. We were young and there’s a pretty good tech scene in Boston, so it was a fun place to be at the time. We were startup of the year in 99 in Boston. So it was a lot of fun. We did get some interesting media attention doing CNBC and one of my favorite stories was New York Magazine made us one of their 20 biggest influencers of 99 in the investment business or something. It was just three summers earlier that I had been at Goldman Sachs and literally Abby Joseph Cohen was the page before us.

Aaron Dinin:

Abby Joseph Cohen, for those who don’t know, was a partner at Goldman Sachs in the 90s and co-chair of their investment policy committee. She was famous for predicting the huge bull market of the 90s and was at the time, considered one of the most influential people in the financial world.

Bill Martin:

So they called me up and they were like, “What the heck happened?” Right? There was just some funny stuff like that. We enjoyed drinking the Kool-Aid.

Aaron Dinin:

Any particularly memorable experiences that stand out to you?

Bill Martin:

I remember late 90s, going to a Yankees World Series game with my CEO of Raging Bull, Dave Wetherell and his son were there, Dan Case, who ran Hambrecht & Quist. He was Steve Case’s brother. He unfortunately passed away years later from cancer, but also there was Michael Armstrong, who ran AT&T and the reason Raging Bull was there and AT&T was there was H&Q wanted to do the AT&T wireless IPO, and they wanted to do the Raging Bull IPO. We’re sitting there game six of the World Series in 99. Which is totally ridiculous. I mean, we’re a company of $10 million of revenue and AT&T Wireless, but you drink the Kool-Aid while they’re serving it.

Aaron Dinin:

Drink the Kool-Aid while they’re serving it. If I ever write a book about the late 90s dot-com boom, I’m pretty sure that’s going to be the title. But to be fair, smart people like Bill weren’t entirely fooled by what was going on. Even if they were enjoying it.

Bill Martin:

We were drinking the Kool-Aid as much as anyone, but I knew enough about finance and the markets to realize that something was funny. Things were a little off kilter and I remember in the fall of 99, I went to Dave Wetherell and E-Trade had just approached us trying to buy us in a cash deal. I think it was $80 or $100 million or something, real money. I’m like, “Dave, it’s kind of interesting. I can run the numbers, it’s a pretty good price.” And he was just very insistent that we were a billion dollar company, we’re going to go public and he didn’t want to sell. Even if he kept doubling the revenues, it was time to be selling. We didn’t control the outcome.

Aaron Dinin:

So by that point, you were no longer the majority stakeholders?

Bill Martin:

CMGI ended up, through the two rounds of financing, raising $20 million in mid 99, on top of the original money we raised. Yeah, they controlled it.

Aaron Dinin:

So Dave wouldn’t let you take the $100 million offer? That seems crazy.

Bill Martin:

Dave ended up coming back to us and saying, “All right, I’ll let you sell, but it has to be to one of the other companies I can control.” At the time, our best bet there was AltaVista, which was another early internet story. They had an S1 on file and they were supposed to go public in Q1 of 2000. So we thought that was our quickest way to get public. We signed a deal right around Thanksgiving of 1999. We were fortunate to get a little bit of cash in the deal, but it was largely AltaVista’s stock. I think we nailed the timing. Thanksgiving of 99 was pretty good spot, but AltaVista ended up not making it out. They were supposed to go public in April of 2000 and they missed the window by a week or two. We rode up our high price stock and we rode it down. And then of course, AltaVista had its own obsolescence issues in time with Google.

Aaron Dinin:

And this seems like a good opportunity to plug our very first episode of Web Masters, episode number one, which was a conversation with Louis Monier, creator of AltaVista. If you haven’t checked it out, be sure to do that. As for Bill, well you heard what happened. Not a terrible outcome for a 20 something, but also not the best outcome. Still, Bill takes it all in stride and he recognizes the important lessons he learned from the experience. He also appreciates the uniqueness of the opportunity to have been where he was during that important time in both internet and stock market history.

Bill Martin:

I remember sitting in March of 2000, another dot-com moment, but I was at Dave Wetherell’s house and his stock had gone from $500 million market cap to $60 billion. And he was all upset because on some of the parts basis, he thought his company was worth $80 billion when he looked at all the individual holdings. And again, young guy drinking the Kool-Aid, but I knew something was a little off. It was frustrating kind of write it down, but I do take away from the experience of the gut instinct that now’s the time to be a seller. We got that right.

Aaron Dinin:

So in retrospect, what are your thoughts on taking venture capital money? Are you pro VC? Anti VC?

Bill Martin:

I mean, I could articulate both sides. I’ve seen it work and not work, right? I do think having the right VC, the ecosystem, the brand, the discipline that they can bring to bear is super attractive and worth it’s weight in gold. But it depends on the type of business you’re building. If it is a business that you’re racing against the clock and you have a finite window, and having that they can kind of throw rocket fuel on it, I think is good for an entrepreneur. But I think there’s a lot of other businesses where you have more of a defensible niche, or a longer term time horizon to build that business where it’s not maybe spend a ton of money in the next two years, or you’re going to miss your window. I think there’s a lot of benefits to just organically building the business and figuring out how to do that.

Aaron Dinin:

And to be clear, a site like RagingBull.com was definitely a racing against the clock kind of business. It was a land grab for user attention and they certainly got it. Unfortunately, it was just at a time when the business models hadn’t quite caught up with the demand, which of course was the case for a lot of companies at that time in internet history.

Bill Martin:

Yeah, I think we were early in understanding the power of the internet, to bring people together and connect them and share information. I think the business model was 10, 15 years too early. I’ve been fortunate, our single best investment in our hedge fund was actually Facebook and being along that. I think for me, the framework of Facebook was actually having experience of Raging Bull, seeing GeoCities early on, having experience with some of these online communities and when Facebook came around, realized pretty early that it was an operating system. Just immensely powerful and part of this was just Zuckerberg was about 1,000 times smarter than I am, but he was able to build a business model around it, and what an incredible business it is. It’s still kind of going. Twitter has done the same. Financial Twitter today is super popular and it reminds me a lot of the early days of what we were doing. Just bringing a community together.

Aaron Dinin:

One thing the story of Raging Bull is definitely doing is highlighting the power of online communities. Even in the earliest days, was online communities at sites like Raging Bull that helped propel the stock market forward in the late 90s. It was those same communities that helped send it tumbling down in the early 2000s. Now, whether those communities are good things or bad things is of course, a completely different question.

Bill Martin:

I mean, it’s like fire. It’s most used for good. You just got to be careful, right? You can burn your hands too. So the democratization of information and the collapse in trading cost and everything else. I mean, it’s a fantastic, awesome thing that’s great for the economy and less friction is a good thing. You can build whatever algorithm you want, you can’t replace the human emotions of greed and fear, and greed and fear still rule the day in markets, right? So technology’s just technology and make it go faster. Greed and fear are still there, but it’s amazing just to think that it was 25 years ago I had to drive half an hour to look up information on a stock, and the information was three months old. That’s pretty amazing.

Aaron Dinin:

It certainly is. And, hey, you know what else is amazing? This podcast series, right? So now that we’ve wrapped up the story of Raging Bull. I’m going to encourage you to subscribe to Web Masters on your podcasting app of choice. So you’re sure to get the next amazing episode as soon as it’s released. I’d like to thank Bill Martin for taking the time to share the story of RagingBull.com. I’d also liked to thank our audio engineer, Ryan Higgs. And I’d like to thank our sponsor Latona’s. Remember, if you’re interested in buying or selling an internet business, be sure to check our Latonas.com. And if you’re interested in sharing your thoughts, feedback, or ideas about the podcast, find us on Twitter. We’re @WebMastersPod. I’m Twitter too @AaronDinin. That’s A-A-R-O-N-D-I-N-I-N. I also write lots of articles about startups, entrepreneurship and internet businesses over on medium.com. Find all of that content there. Just search for my name and hopefully it’ll tide you over until we release the next episode of Web Masters, which I promise is coming soon. But for now, time for me to sign off.