Web Masters Episode #11: Philip Rosedale

On this episode of the Web Masters podcast, Philip Rosedale, creator of Second Life, shares the story of how he created a virtual world with a million people living inside of it. Listen now.



Second Life - Wikipedia

Philip Rosedale:

We think of traveling into outer space, right? As children. And it’s such a popular dream to go into space. Why don’t we think about inner space, the same way? If we can simulate the laws of physics and even evolution, we can make another galaxy inside of computers, which we are going to be able to do very, very soon. Why wouldn’t we go in there and meet the alien beings that might come to be inside those immense spaces? Why would that be any less interesting than going out into the real physical universe? And then of course, as a physics person, I can tell you, we’re not going to find living things very easily out there in the universe.

The universe is very big. Yeah. And so to find them, it’s going to be very hard. And of course, as many have said, if there were a lot of living things out there in the universe, why wouldn’t they already have come by and said, “Hello.” It’s got to be that it’s a very, very difficult prospect to find interesting new kinds of life out there in the universe. So we do have an alternative and the alternative is to basically make these pocket universes that contain multitudes inside themselves and then go in there and have adventures.

Aaron Dinin:

Adventures inside pocket universes, where we can explore different worlds, defy the laws of physics, maybe even meet some aliens. Sure, it might sound like science fiction but according to our guest on this episode of Web Masters, it really isn’t such a huge stretch from where we currently are. Why should we believe him? Well, his name is Philip Rosedale, and he’s been building one of those aspiring pocket universes since 1999. In fact, you’ve probably heard of it. Heck you might even be part of it. It’s called Second Life. Ready to hear his story? Great. Let’s get dialed in.

[INTRO]

Aaron Dinin:

Hi and welcome to Web Masters. The podcast where we explore the history of internet entrepreneurship by talking with some of the world’s most impactful internet entrepreneurs. I’m Aaron Dinin. I spent the first 15 years of my career building internet businesses and now I teach in the innovation and entrepreneurship initiative at Duke University and I study the history of the World Wide Web. Those studies actually began for me back in graduate school, around 2007, when I took a class both about and literally inside of the then revolutionary new virtual world, that was called Second Life back then had you told me I’d be interviewing Second Life’s founder and creator Philip Rosedale over a decade later, you might have been able to convince me it’d be like talking to a King or some sort of royalty. And I don’t mean that because he presented himself as the King of Second Life.

I mean that, because a lot of the talk around that time was about how Second Life was a glimpse into the rapidly approaching future in which everyone lived inside virtual worlds. And as the creator of the first 3D immersive virtual world, surely Philip was going to hold a place of honor, but here we are more than two decades after Philip first began building Second Life. And I’m guessing you’re not listening to this podcast inside of a virtual world, or if you are you don’t realize it. So what happened to that imagined future, and just as importantly, what’s still to come? That’s what we’re going to ask about today on this episode. But first I want to tell you about something else.

Aaron Dinin:

This podcast wouldn’t be possible without the generous support of Latona’s. Latona’s is a boutique mergers and acquisitions company that specializes in the buying and selling of cashflow positive internet businesses. That includes things like SAS apps, Shopify stores, Amazon FBAs, domain portfolios, basically any type of business you can operate online, which includes, I suppose, businesses people are running inside of virtual worlds. So hey, if you’re interested in selling your profitable internet business, even the one you’ve got running inside of Second Life, reach out to the team at Latona’s and see how they can help you get it sold. Or if you’re hoping to buy an already profitable internet business, check out Latona’s as well. They’re posting listings for new businesses all the time.

See all your options now, on the Latona’s website. That’s latonas.com, L-A-T-O-N-A-S.com. It’s hard to overstate, just how much publicity and media hype surrounded Second Life during the peak of its rise to public consciousness. This was around 2006. The demographics of web users was fully tipping away from early adopters and to the general public and the possibility and potential of fully immersive online virtual worlds seemed like something straight out of a science fiction novel and literally onto our desks.

Philip Rosedale:

Late 2005, 2006, it took off and it took off just absolutely explosively. And at the time in 2006, there was something like 600 articles in the press written about us every day of which about half were in print. I used to just tell people, I couldn’t even read all this stuff. The delight people had with the idea of their being another world is so amazing, and so galvanizing. It was incredible to be the company at the moment that was at the center of that attention. It was a very interesting experience.

Aaron Dinin:

But like every internet business that becomes the spotlight of media attention in the collective public imagination. Second Life didn’t magically appear in 2006. In fact, Philip had been imagining a future of virtual worlds much, much, much earlier than that.

Philip Rosedale:

So I had always been obsessed with this idea of building a virtual world. I loved the idea of building some kind of a big physics based world that was immense and somehow simulated on many computers.

Aaron Dinin:

You heard Philip mentioned physics when he talked about his interest in virtual worlds. That’s important because that’s actually where the story of second life begins. It has nothing to do with building a big internet business or making money, or even some visionary claims about the future of humanity. Instead, Phillip loved physics. And he was curious about translating the rules of physics into a virtual environment.

Philip Rosedale:

From the time I was a little kid, I was really fascinated by physics going all the way back. For example, I can remember really being interested in lasers and how lasers work. I tried multiple times from fourth grade on to build a laser with a glass tube and mirrors at the ends. And you can’t really do it that way, it’s too hard, but I was obsessed with kind of physicsy things. I built an analog computer when I was in the fourth grade and took it to school and made everybody do a show and tell with it. I loved gadgets and tinkering. And a lot of that kept coming back to physics. How the world ultimately worked at the bottom. I wanted to know how atoms worked and I wanted to know how planets formed and that kind of stuff. So when I got to college, I felt like the biggest thing I could do aspirationally was be a physicist because that was the hardest stuff to learn. That was what I thought going into college. While also sort of on the side being quite entrepreneurial.

Aaron Dinin:

So you were an entrepreneurial physicist? I haven’t met many of those. I’m curious where the interest in entrepreneurship come from.

Philip Rosedale:

I was very entrepreneurial as a young person. And when I was in high school, I got a job selling cars. I loved cars. I loved working on them. And so near my house was a place selling cars. And I discovered that they did not use computers at all to sell these cars, which of course involved a lot of calculations and contracts and things like that. So the entrepreneurial me jumped on that and I wrote some database software using one of the oldest database technologies called dBase, which is an old software that was around in the eighties for PCs. And I wrote some software that helped these car dealerships keep track of all the cars that they had to sell and all the details about them, and also print out all the contracts when they actually sold them.

And figure out what numbers to put in what spots, which back then was really a pretty laborious process. So I jumped on the idea of just using a thousand or $2,000 PC compatible computer as a kind of a glorified typewriter, adding machine for car dealerships in and around San Diego, where I grew up. I actually put myself through college with the money that I made, not a ton of money, but the kind of regular income that I made from taking care of these businesses with these software systems I had written.

Aaron Dinin:

So here, we’ve got Phillip, the entrepreneur paying his way through college with income from the SAS business for car dealerships he’d built as a high schooler in the late eighties, and that’s actually supporting Philip, the physics student. So I guess that’s how we wind up with Philip the entrepreneurial physicist. And when he graduates college, he takes those two passions and brings them with him to San Francisco, where he moves with his new wife who’d gotten a job there.

Philip Rosedale:

By great fortune I followed her up to San Francisco for what was also a computer software job and took my little business ideas with me, my entrepreneurial ideas, and just happened to get a little office just after college, right at the Caltrain station in San Francisco, which was kind of the ground zero for the internet. And so there again, I was very fortunate. The entrepreneurial work I had done with these car dealers, I used to connect them together with a kind of a BBS style network that I coded up myself to basically allow different car dealerships, to know what cars were in the other car dealerships locations. And so I had kind of done a primitive version of the internet in that. And so when I came up after college to San Francisco, I was so delighted to discover that the idea of internetworking was going to be this big consumer thing. And the timing was perfect.

Aaron Dinin:

And in Philip’s mind, timing is really important. In fact, Philip attributes a lot of his success to good timing.

Philip Rosedale:

Well, they always say that timing is everything, and it certainly is. Timing is bigger than any of us. And for me, the timing was the internet. That is to say the idea of the personal computer had come of age just a few years before I was a kid. So I had the advantage of having these relatively inexpensive computers around from the time I was 12 years old or something. And so I was able to start programming with them and enjoying them, not as internet devices yet, but just as PCs.

Aaron Dinin:

Of course, it’s hard to argue with Philip about the overall importance of timing, especially as it relates to entrepreneurship. After all this story is taking place in the early nineties, in the heart of San Francisco. And that’s well, a good time and place to be if you’re an entrepreneurial physicist who knows how to build software, but even though Phillip was interested in virtual worlds, by this point, ironically, the timing wouldn’t quite be right, because it was still too early in the history of both computers and the web for that to be a realistic dream.

Philip Rosedale:

Even in 1994, when I came up to San Francisco and found out about what was happening with the internet, my first thought was I got to build a virtual world. I’ve got to build what ultimately came to be called Second Life. But even as ambitious as I was, and as perhaps irrationally interested as I was in the idea, I didn’t feel that I could do it at that time. I felt that it was too early. The internet was too slow. It was a modem based experience then and computers couldn’t do 3D graphics yet. So I told all my friends, “Well, all right, then I’m going to do some other things because this internet contains so many possibilities and I’ll come back to this when the technology is ready, which will probably be in a few years.”

So instead I worked on sending audio and video over the internet live. And in the early nineties, 94, 95, very few people had done that. There were little experiments around, and I wrote a thing called FreeVue. That piece of software was downloaded thousands of times by people. And it was a very bad video conferencing system, basically, where you could call multiple people at one time. So was like Skype or Zoom today, but it was 1995 that I think we first put it up. My physics TA from college came and joined me and worked together on this. And we made a very simple video conferencing system called FreeVue. A lot of people downloaded it and said, “Wow, this is a trip.” You can see these really bad black and white images of people all the way across the world. And I was tremendously inspired by that, by the way, I could not believe that I could see a grainy video image of a person on my PC across the world. Today, we completely take it for granted, but this was super cool.

Aaron Dinin:

Super cool seems like a bit of an understatement. You’re actually building video conferencing in 1995. What happened with that project?

Philip Rosedale:

What happened next was a guy up in Seattle named Rob Glaser, who is a piece of internet greatness in history, found out about what I was doing because he had made this company called Progressive Networks now RealNetworks. And so he ended up getting me to sell my company and I joined RealNetworks as one of their early team members with the job of making their stuff have video. So that was my job going up to Seattle, my first kind of real job.

Aaron Dinin:

And as Phillip mentioned, Rob Glaser is another important name in internet history. He’s a former Microsoft exec who went on to found RealNetworks, which pioneered many of the internet audio and video streaming technologies we take for granted today. And it turns out Philip actually played a huge role in developing those technologies.

Philip Rosedale:

For the next three and a half years, I went to Seattle and I joined there as the young person in charge of building some kind of a video capability to reel audio, which is quite a thing at the time. And so I joined when that company was about 60 people and I went on to become the VP and then the CTO of RealNetworks and RealNetworks went public in 1996 or seven. And then I left the company in the middle of 1999 when we were about 650 people.

Aaron Dinin:

Okay. So let me make sure I get this. So you play this huge role in bringing streaming video to the web via real networks. And you’re still basically in your twenties and CTO of a public company? I mean, that seems like a pretty good place to be. So why the heck do you decide to leave?

Philip Rosedale:

I did that because two things had changed. Computers became able to do 3D well, which happened in 1999. And the second thing that happened was the broadband internet was going to make it. You could tell from the numbers, as we were watching closely at RealNetworks, you could tell that broadband was going to be the way to connect to the internet. And so given that broadband and 3D were capable things barely, I quit my job there and had made a little bit of money from the company going public. And so I was able to start a new company back in San Francisco in Hayes Valley called Linden Lab in late 1999.

Aaron Dinin:

Okay, Linden Labs. And that’s the company that runs Second Life, right? So you’re basically leaving an amazing job to pursue your… Hope you don’t mind me saying this, but you’re leaving an amazing job to pursue your kind of crazy virtual worlds vision at this point. So can you talk a bit about why you were so drawn to it? I mean, why did you have to leave this amazing job to go build a virtual world in 1999?

Philip Rosedale:

I’ve thought a lot about what originally gave me so much passion about the idea. I think there’s a lot of different things. I always had this sense that you could do physics inside computers. And that was a pretty, “Oh wow.” Awesome thought to me. Things like those early fractal programs that would draw fractals and you could zoom in. A friend of mine and I zoomed in until we ran out a resolution on one of those programs, zooming in little bits of fractals and blowing up the whole screen back then it took like a minute for it to draw each picture. And we calculated that the 12 by 12 inch piece of screen we were looking at when we ran out of time and accuracy, we calculated that the original fractal Mandelbrot image was the size of the surface of the earth. And we were looking at a 12 inch tile on something the size of earth. And I remember thinking like, “Man, that is crazy that you could have worlds of infinity that live inside the computers.”

Aaron Dinin:

Sounds a little trippy for sure. Anything else?

Philip Rosedale:

I know that I also used to dream about building about this architectural dream of what would a world be like, where everybody was sort of floating around in space suits and space, and just able to draw blocks into existence in their hands and sort of stick them in space? What kind of strange architectures and spaces would we all create if we had some sort of an equal capability to do that and all our computers were connected together? I don’t know. I just had this very intense feeling that, that would be interesting. There was a lot of wonderful counter-culture hacking and kind of spirit going on in the eighties in San Francisco and in Silicon Valley that I missed. And now I’ve read all the books and I really wish I would’ve gotten to hang out with that whole gang because I think I would have really resonated with them. But for me, it was just a personal dream about how interesting it would be to see a space like that, that was made by other people.

Aaron Dinin:

In the entrepreneurial space, people throw around the term visionary a lot. And honestly, I’m usually a bit skeptical when I hear it. The visions to me seem more like visions of making lots of money than visions of building truly revolutionary innovations, but just listening to Philip, I feel like he sees the world differently than most other people. He really is a visionary. He is quite literally envisioning a different world and all the implications of what it would mean to be able to move freely into it.

Philip Rosedale:

I had this dream of what the place might look and feel like and be like to be in there. And then I sort of had this interesting societal question of, what if you could start all over and be in another world and kind of live there as much as you wanted to?

Aaron Dinin:

What if you could just start your life over in another world? What if you could just begin a completely different second life for yourself? That’s what Philip wanted to build. And he didn’t want to do it for money or fame or fortune. He wanted to do it because well, for him, it’s part of being human. It’s part of the natural human desire to learn and explore and expand our knowledge of what’s possible.

Philip Rosedale:

Maybe from studying physics so much as a kid and then college, I kind of got this idea that this isn’t the only possible world. The laws of physics have their limits. There are things about the real world that are nevertheless, a set of limits that influence us as human beings living in them. And so what about creating other worlds that have other kinds of limits? What might that be like? I guess I find that the idea of [inaudible 00:18:44] and the mystery and the exploration of what some new world might be like to be something akin to space travel.

Aaron Dinin:

Philip compares exploring new worlds inside of computers to space travel. He argues not unreasonably I suppose that if we as a species are inherently motivated to explore the infinite universe beyond our world. Shouldn’t we also be equally as motivated to explore the infinite universes within our world? And just as importantly, Philip also wonders whether new worlds might offer us an opportunity to maybe correct some of the many problems and mistakes in the current world in which we live.

Philip Rosedale:

Why not do it over again? I mean, the idea that we could create something as big and wonderful as the world itself, again, inside computers is breathtaking, but I think there’s a lot of inequity that’s inherent in the real world. I mean, in the real world, we have an ability to come to blows and kill each other that we might be able to remove in a digital world. I think though, soberly we’ve especially learned a lot lately about the limitations of digital worlds. It’s easy to fantasize and believe that digital worlds are inherently some utopia that is going to be better. And of course, that isn’t true either. Although for me personally, as a very positively oriented optimistic thinker, I find that to be a delightful, additional challenge that we, as the creators of worlds have to respect. We can make terrible choices that have terrible impacts on ourselves and our fellow people as we go into these worlds.

Aaron Dinin:

And now we’re starting to get into logistics. I mean, envisioning new worlds is one thing, but actually creating them seems really challenging. Can you talk about the actual process of launching something as massively ambitious as Second Life?

Philip Rosedale:

Yeah. I started it in 99, invested my own money in it for the first year and a half or two years. Got some amazing investors, chief among them Mitch Kapor, who is my mentor and just a tremendous amazing person and was the initial believer that would never let up on the idea that this was something to keep going after. And so it was great to have him as a backer, wouldn’t have happened without him. And we got ourselves up to maybe about 20 people and got Second Life really built by about 2003. And then it took a couple of very worrisome years for it to get going, because these user created things where we’re all building something new, take time, you can’t speed them up. And so Second Life, we started in 1999, really launched the product in 2003.

Aaron Dinin:

So 1999 to 2003 is four years between starting the company and actually launching, I mean, that’s a lot of development time, right?

Philip Rosedale:

Four years of software engineering. I mean, it really was a monster of a project. You’re talking about a thousand computer servers, all connected to each other in some crazy way with storage and everything else, moving around information about all these people and objects and everything. So it was a really big software project. Companies like Pixar have done similar things where they’ve sort of had to build little terrariums for imaginary worlds and doing it for film and doing it for a whole bunch of people walking around in it are very different, but similar scale engineering projects. So it was just a really big software project for the most part. And in between there, there was all the usual, how are we going to describe this? What are we going to call it? How do we get people to join? How are we going to price it? There’s all that stuff too. But I would say the monster of the challenge was a big engineering project.

Aaron Dinin:

I mean, it seems like it must’ve been enormous, especially in the early 2000s. How did you manage just building the infrastructure to run everything?

Philip Rosedale:

Talk about your stories about the internet that nobody remembers? We had to ship racks of computers to co-location facilities. So we had to have trucks delivering a thousand pound rack of machines and then bolting it to the floor and hooking up a fiber to that rack and turning it on. And we had to do that because we had to create more land in Second Life for people to move into. And if we didn’t do that, the land prices would go out of control, which would screw up the economy. So we had to actually kind of fill in the water on the edge of the Island, quite literally to create more land, more virtual real estate.

Aaron Dinin:

There’s no way that’s cheap to manage, but aren’t accounts in Second Life free? So how does Second Life make money to at the very least survive and keep the lights on?

Philip Rosedale:

Exactly. Walking around in there is absolutely free. But if you want to own a piece of land, because you want to put a house or a store or an experience like a bar or a concert hall or something, you’ve got to buy the land from somebody else, but then there’s a property tax that you have to pay to the company to keep those servers up and running underneath it for you.

Aaron Dinin:

And so Second Life’s business model is basically to be what? The government? People pay their taxes, or you, I guess, evict them, kick them off the Island as it were?

Philip Rosedale:

The way Second Life works as a business basically is that if you think about an acre of land in this virtual world, and it is literally one big virtual world about the size of Los Angeles now. An acre of that world has basically a fixed amount of energy of resources that it uses up when there are people moving around and building things on it and stuff. And so many acres of the world corresponds to one computer server. And so basically the way the company makes money on Second Life is by charging a property tax if you will, an unimproved property tax, the same number for everybody, which is so many dollars per acre, per month, that you have to pay for the land that you have in there.

Aaron Dinin:

And when we’re talking about all these people living and working and owning land inside of Second Life, how the heck did they get there? And what exactly are they doing? How did it grow?

Philip Rosedale:

Things that are driven by people contributing their own art and energy and creativity to them are inevitably very, very slow to get started. And then very exponential once they do get started, right? Because in the example of Second Life in the beginning, people were building things with big blocks of what looked almost literally like a block of plywood and game designers would come by and they’d be like, that is the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen. You’re going to just totally fail. And one, I’d feel terrible. And then two, I’d try to keep my chin up and say, “Well, you just wait, you just wait.” And then people would make smaller boxes and paint the sides of the boxes and twist them a little bit.

You’d see the first bicycle show up in the world and you’d see somebody do jewelry or you’d see somebody put hair on their avatar that was really crazy looking. And all of this stuff took time and it built on itself, but like any economy, I mean, I guess you could think of something like eBay or something. Once the mass of people making things got rolling, there wasn’t any stopping it. Then at some point people started to make their living, selling things that they were making in there. People started to make some real money in 2005 from the things that they were building. So then there was an economic engine that pressed the thing farther forward.

Aaron Dinin:

So that’s cool. You’ve got entrepreneurs inside of Second Life building and selling things. Was that your plan? Did you mean to do that?

Philip Rosedale:

Looking back, I would just say we did it correctly from the beginning. We didn’t know that we did, we were tearing our hair out, wondering what we needed to tweak to get it to work. But I think it worked from the beginning. People started building things. People got that we were just kind of giving up control of this big world to everybody that was in it, which was very different than a video game. And they started building just like we had wanted, but it just took a really long time for that exponential coefficient to turn up into the J curve. And then once it did, by the way, it rocketed to a standing population of about a million people and stopped there and has stayed at that size and never gotten any smaller from about 2009 until now.

Aaron Dinin:

That’s kind of incredible. You’ve still got a million people living inside of Second Life right now. And why do you think growth stopped there? Was there something magical about that 1 million person population number?

Philip Rosedale:

I think that Second Life is very challenging. Going into a 3D world that’s as immersive and real and detailed as Second Life is asks a lot of you. There’s like a 40 hour training process on average for people to get comfortable with it. And so for a lot of people, it’s just not an option. People that have a demanding compelling rich existence in the real world do not have the extra time to kind of live a second life. And so I think that it’s been of service more to people who have for various reasons, less opportunity for engagement and experience or sometimes making money and stuff in the real world than turn to Second Life.

So some of it is self-limiting because of that, it’s almost a forced choice. You choose one or the other. I think as technology continues to make these experiences easier to get into, and it’s still challenging, but we are making progress. Our machines are much faster. We can make some of these things easier than before. We’re going to see larger populations of people coming into virtual worlds, but it’s tricky. And so I think what made Second Life stop was we kind of reached a point where the difficulty of getting into it to set a natural limit on the size of the population.

Aaron Dinin:

It sounds like what you’re saying is one of the limiting factors is that it’s really like managing an entirely separate life, including all the time and energy and resources that it would take to have basically in totally different life. Is that kind of where the name came from? Is that why you called it Second Life?

Philip Rosedale:

One of the other names we were considering was Sansara, which we thought about a lot of names that were either sort of technical, names that suggested what it was capable of, like tinker toys, something that described the functionality, but then Robin Harper, our great chief marketing officer, and one of the first non-engineering great thinkers who guide us in this thing. We looked at all these different names and Second Life was actually among them. And she said, “Look, the thing about Second Life is that’s not what you can do. It’s what you get if you use it, you get a second life.” And I remember hearing her say that and being like, “Done, that’s the name.”

Aaron Dinin:

And for lots of people, about a million of them, that’s exactly what Second Life is. It’s the opportunity to start over someplace new, to build a new world. But interestingly, before we can build a new world, according to Philip, it turns out that people start by doing something else.

Philip Rosedale:

The first things we built in virtual worlds tended to be the things we already knew and had a lot of value in. So we built Los Angeles rather than Star Trek. I always thought that was interesting. It wasn’t the matrix. It didn’t end up looking like the matrix it ended up looking like Malibu, which is really interesting. Our aspirations kind of came first. Maybe there’s a bit of philosophy there that we have to have everything of the real world first in the virtual world and then move on to whatever the future naturally is for virtual worlds. That says something interesting about the likely near future of more and more broad consumer virtual experiences.

Aaron Dinin:

And out of curiosity, once we’re done building what we already know, where do you think these virtual worlds go after that?

Philip Rosedale:

We can continue to build these experiences and these worlds and these virtual worlds that are uplifting for people. And the whole examination right now of social media. I think once we kind of get it all out in front of us, we’re going to realize, well, these are choices we can make. We can make choices about advertising, business models and things like that. That lead to people being divisively manipulated by AIs, but we don’t have to do it that way. And Second Life stands there as a proof of technologies optimism. People have a great time in there and learn things and make new friends and become less polarized. Trust me, I can forward you the emails, it’s incredible. It’s uplifting. And it certainly keeps me working on this day in and day out all these years.

Aaron Dinin:

So are you arguing that Second Life specifically, and I guess virtual worlds in general are in a way like a better version of social media?

Philip Rosedale:

Well, I think it blurs over time as we build these hyper worlds that are increasingly linked and complicated. I think the difference though between Second Life and social media is social media is taking us in the direction of hyper-connected. And I think a little bit beyond our capacity, frankly, as humans. There’s too much FOMO, there’s too much information. I think virtual worlds can go actually in a different direction where they can take us maybe in a quieter direction where they are sort of inherently spatial and maybe we’re using technology, but maybe we can use it in a more relaxing or a more long form kind of way. I think that’s one final possibility.

Aaron Dinin:

Imagine that. An online social community where you can go to escape the chaos of the world around you, rather than drown in it. That’s a vision from an original internet visionary I can definitely get behind. Maybe you can too, or maybe not. Either way, I hope you enjoyed learning about it. I know I did, which is why I want to thank our incredible guest Philip Rosedale for taking the time to share it with all of us. Worth noting Philip, no longer runs Second Life. Though as you can tell by our conversation, he’s still very passionate about it. If you’d like to see what he’s working on now, it’s really pretty cool and you won’t be shocked to learn he’s still thinking about very similar things. You can follow him on Twitter. He’s at Philip Rosedale. Of course, this podcast is on Twitter too. We’re @WebMastersPod.

Write us there with questions, comments, concerns, or feedback about the episode. And I’m on Twitter @AaronDinin, that’s A-A-R O-N D-I-N-I-N. And remember, I also write lots of articles about startups, entrepreneurship, and so on over at medium.com. Just search for my name there to find what I’ve written. A big thanks to our sponsor, Latona’s for helping make this podcast possible. If you’re interested in buying or selling an internet business, be sure to check out latonas.com and also thank you to our audio engineer, Ryan Higgs for making this episode sound awesome. And speaking of awesome things, if you liked the episode, be sure to subscribe to Web Masters in your podcasting app of choice, post a nice review, and also share it with everyone you know, so they can have a chance to subscribe before our next episode, which is coming out in just a few days. Until then, well, I guess it’s time for me to sign off.